I didn't mention it before but when we were pulling out of the parking lot for the Pebble Beach tour all of a sudden the transmission started making horrible noises. It would sort of come and go. Although never completely go away. I was very happy we made it back. Car came back Wednesday. By Thursday afternoon we had the transmission out of the car.
Before we dropped it we found this floating around in the bottom of the transmission. Eeeek!!.
Getting it out of the car and closely inspecting the gears we found this little issue. Looks to be a single gear.
So my car is the only known car running the optional Clark 425T Four speed. That is the bad news. The good news is the same transmission was an option in 30/31 Pierce Arrow also. And John Cislak the Pierce Arrow guy has two of them sitting on his shop floor.
So the transmission will be pulled apart and I'm heading to John's next week to see if we can match up some parts. John also has some documentation on these transmissions sitting on a CD that I will try to extract and post. For the life of me I can't figure out which gear is which and I'm praying the one we broke is not the brand new one we had made (10 years ago). That was 2nd gear.
Ouch. That stinks A.J. I'm guessing that the input shaft on the Pierce Arrow Clark might be different but I'll bet the rest of it is the same. Hopefully you can find that gear and it is the only issue.
That is my hope Bob. The last gear we made was 2500.00 and that was 10 years ago. I'm guessing prices have gone up.
Well that’s not great. Sorry to hear that. Fingers crossed that the parts in the Pierce trans match up.
What was funny is that all the stuff you worry about with an old car I did not worry about with this one. Runs cool, starts hot or cold immediately. You don't ever worry about dropping your transmission on the ground.
Well on the upside, you didn’t leave the gears scattered on the ramp at Pebble.
Don't think that wasn't going through my mind...
Keep us posted. Have you considered swapping in a standard 3 speed?
Bob, you are like the 3rd person who has said that. The car has been documented as the only known Royale with the 4 speed option and I really want to keep it that way. I liked the way it drove (prior to starting to make a bunch of noise). It almost makes we want another Royale (shudder...).
How many Pierce Arrows are out there with that transmission? Maybe somebody is making parts?
Here is the bad gear. I believe it is 2nd and the one we had re-made 10 years ago for 2500 bucks. I got 100 plus miles out of it.
That’s lousy. Problem with the heat treating, perhaps?
Heading to Cislak's tomorrow to try to match up with the Pierce Clark transmission he has. Wish me luck.
Spent 90 minutes with John Cislak and my Clark is different than the 2 Pierce Arrow Clarks that he has. Case is slightly different, mine has bearings where the Pierce tranny has bushings and the gearing is different.
Although all of them have chipped 3rd gear which looks to be a weak spot in the design. John had a CD with rebuild instructions and photos for the Clark. I have added them to the library.
Also, I have reached out to Liberty Gears who build drag race transmissions and seem to be the best in the nation to see if they wan to take the project on.
Maybe there is a low mileage transmission out there without a chipped set? That might be the cheapest route. Liberty has some great youtube videos if you search for them. If they will make the gears I'm sure you will be fine but that will be some money for sure.
From the Pierce Arrow Society Archives. 1973 Newsletter #6
Fred Twist: Yes, this car has a four-speed transmission and it’s a great help in traffic because it has a very high third gear ratio so that you can put it in third and easily accelerate to as much as 50 mph.
OHK: These 1930 models were equipped with the very fine Clark herringbone gear four-speed transmission. This is an unusual transmission, well-designed, and built by the Clark Equipment Company, which is still in business. It was characterized by having two sets of herringbone gears. The main gear train was herringbone and the third speed herringbone was designed with fine-pitch gears in the front half of the herringbone and large-pitch gears in the rear half, riveted together. Obviously, in assembly, the main shaft had to be timed to the countershaft, because if they were not, they would be badly out of time and would result in a very high gear noise. We've had several occasions in the club when members have re-assembled their trans missions without regard for the timing marks and have written in for help. The solution is to take the transmission out, dismantle it, and re-assemble it with the timing marks on these gears matched up. When properly assembled, these transmissions work very well and are quiet. In this transmission high gear was direct drive and third gear was 1.25 to 1. This is very close to the high gear ratio and permits you to operate in traffic or up hills without gear noise and with surprising performance in third gear.
Another thing I would like to point out about these cars is that they had engines of small bore/long stroke type which were prevalent in that era and are teamed perfectly with manual transmissions. If you match a small
Pierce Arrow Society 1994 #2.
The transmissian is charncterized by having twr: sets of
herringbone gears. The rttaisr qear train is herringbone and the
third spe& herrinqbun~ EC@? designed with fine-pitch gears in the
front half of the harringbune and large-pitch gears in the rear
half, riveted togethes;. In asseabl~, the main shaft has to be
timed to the coun~e~:shaft, If not properly kimsd, this will
reslllt in a very high gear naise, There have been several
occasions in the club in which members have re-assembled a,
transmission without regard for ths timing marks and have written
for help. The solution is to take the transmission gut,
dismantle it and re-assemble it wikh the timing masks on the 7
gears assembled i this transmission
works very well and is quiet,
The main and secondary gear trains are herringbone wi+h
- m w w. Therefore, they will functisn at D
location on the periphery of the gear and only in one relative.
location which is timed and marked on the gears, If the unit is
assembled with one lone tooth off, it will howl like a banshee or
hang up.
The shiftable cc&al unit, a large diameter double jaw
clutch with every other tooth stopped off, has fore and aft
movement and has a, tendency to wear ridges in the spline shaft
which can cause rough shifting. After decades of-use, the jam
clutch teeth become burred as well as the teeth in the
corresponding gear faces. The shiftable unit ,called the
ltpineapple", must fall of its won weight on the splines when the
shaft is oiled with SAE 20 engine oil and inclined at an angle of
20 degrees off vertical.
When the transmission is disassembled, all parts should be
laid out on white paper, after washing in VARSOL or kerosene (NO
GASOLINE) each should be inspected for burrs, nicks or ridges
with a jeweler's 5X loupe. Any and all parts should be either
stoned or ground with a small
inequality may be found.
f8Dumoreql hand grinder until_ no
It is a good idea to replace all transmission bearings with
new bearings.
_- Use a straight mineral grease of 160 weight such as Texaco
Thuban or equivalent.
Continued...
The silent third'speed is secured by constant-mesh
herringbone gears on the master and intermediate, or third speed,
gear trains. The ratio in third gear is 1,25 to 1. Teeth of the
same w are used on the two halves of the master gears
(nearest the clutch), but, teeth of a &fA:m&t are used on
the halves of the gears on the third speed train. The finer
pitch halve s are forward'and the ooarser pitch rearward. The
third speed herrkngtiane gear is mounted on the main shaft on un:
caged roller bearings. Shifting is by external-internal dog
clutch. Since both sets of master and third gears are
herringbone,
high, and the master set is in use in all gears except
it follows that gear tooth wear is unlikely to be the
reason for your noise. If it were, the noise would be present in
all gears except high.
Because of the different pitch of the halves of the gears in
the third speed gear train, it would be possible to correctly
mate this pair of gears at only one point on the circumferences
of,the gears. This selection has been done at the factory,. where
the gears were timed and the timing marked on the gear faces.
Here is an update. The transmission is going to be re-assembled and crated and sent to Liberty Gear in Michigan. They are going to evaluate it and come up with a proposal for replacing the herringbone gears and possibly minor upgrades to the transmission itself. This is not cheap and not quick. I'll probably start a new topic on this adventure.
I feel like this is the best path forward as it keeps the original transmission, repairs it correctly and possibly improves it depending on what they recommend.
https://libertysgears.com/
So the crate is made. I had a carpenter friend do it for me. Definitely more money than me but better and faster. Need to do some research on the best way to ship more than 100lbs.
A.J., use UPS Ground or Fedex Ground.
Thanks Bob. My first impulse was UPS Ground.
If you have a Fastenal store at both ends, they offer LTL shipping at reasonable rates. They already have trucks hauling their own stuff so they just add you to the shipment.
