Classics with bodies not original to their chassis

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/enthusiast-auction-2021/1932-packard-twin-six-905-sport-phaeton/

I'm surprised by the Pebble invite.    Definitely frowned upon by the top shows.

Some Deusenbergs received one or more new bodies in the first ten years of being built.

And I believe one or two Ferraris were also 'updated' with new shells in the 1950's.

Craig

alsancleApr 11, 2021

https://worldwideauctioneers.com/listings/enthusiast-auction-2021/1932-packard-twin-six-905-sport-phaeton/

I'm surprised by the Pebble invite.    Definitely frowned upon by the top shows.

EXHIBITED............probably filling in a last minute opening on the field.........today, they wouldn't use it as a filler. Especially since there are real examples available. Notice what auction is listing it? Even the big boys won't touch it.

8E45EApr 11, 2021

Some Deusenbergs received one or more new bodies in the first ten years of being built.

And I believe one or two Ferraris were also 'updated' with new shells in the 1950's.

Craig

There are a number of important distinctions.

1.  A Springfield Rolls Royce with a new body from the factory when it was 3 years old is practically the same as it having its original body.   When the new body is really cool, like a Playboy replacing a limo,  it is much better.   Same is true of Duesenberg - see the Rollston SJ that Mecum is selling at Indy.

2.  A body swap on a prewar classic chassis that happened in period is accepted and not frowned upon - assuming it can be proven.   But not as good as the car originally carrying that body.

3.  A body swap or modification that happened shortly after WWII but was done by a real coachbuilder can be acceptable, but is never as good as done in period.    See the Hebmuller 540k as an example.

4.  Body swaps done during restoration make the car radioactive to most serious collectors.

The true indication of a cars provenance and desirability is simple...............look at the past owners and who restored it. It tells the entire tale. Recently at dinner, someone was talking about a well known collection in the states. He asked me if I had seen it, and my thoughts. I replied, since thirty percent or more are modified coachwork, modified chassis, and restored like circus wagons......I declined to visit the collection. He was shocked at my response.......and clearly didn't "understand or get it". Once you touch a dirty car......you are forever tainted. I won't even work on one.............

edinmassApr 11, 2021

The true indication of a cars provenance and desirability is simple...............look at the past owners and who restored it. It tells the entire tale. Recently at dinner, someone was talking about a well known collection in the states. He asked me if I had seen it, and my thoughts. I replied, since thirty percent or more are modified coachwork, modified chassis, and restored like circus wagons......I declined to visit the collection. He was shocked at my response.......and clearly didn't "understand or get it". Once you touch a dirty car......you are forever tainted. I won't even work on one.............

I agree with Ed on this one, I've visited the collection he's referencing.  A lot of money spent, and a lot of it could have been much better spent.  When the hobby was more of a hobby, decades ago, replicated and swapped bodies weren't as big a deal.  Now, with some values in the stratosphere, it's a huge deal.  As Ed says, provenance is everything these days on high dollar cars.  

Interesting fact.......if the cars from that collection ever go to auction...........it won’t be one of the “big” auction houses........just too many cars with bad stories. Also, even the few good cars are now tainted. Too cheap to buy good stuff, and too cheap to fix and maintain them properly. He had unlimited money, and just had to have more bling and iron. To say there was no curation is an understatement. 

edinmassApr 11, 2021

The true indication of a cars provenance and desirability is simple...............look at the past owners and who restored it. It tells the entire tale. Recently at dinner, someone was talking about a well known collection in the states. He asked me if I had seen it, and my thoughts. I replied, since thirty percent or more are modified coachwork, modified chassis, and restored like circus wagons......I declined to visit the collection. He was shocked at my response.......and clearly didn't "understand or get it". Once you touch a dirty car......you are forever tainted. I won't even work on one.............

There are one or two names in every marque that are the death knell for a car if they come up in the ownership history.   Off the top of my head I can think of at least 6 or 7, but the list is much bigger.

alsancleApr 11, 2021

There are one or two names in every marque that are the death knell for a car if they come up in the ownership history.   Off the top of my head I can think of at least 6 or 7, but the list is much bigger.

You mean the guys who take a real car, cut it up and make two, three, and sometimes four “real” cars? It’s a simple mathematical term........... multiplication!

Only those who have been in this hobby since the 1960's truly know how many cars have been rebodied or turned into convertibles. Many more than most think.

Restorer32Apr 12, 2021

Only those who have been in this hobby since the 1960's truly know how many cars have been rebodied or turned into convertibles. Many more than most think.

I vote the Auburn 12 speedster as the most fabricated car in existence.   If you don't have a picture of the original owner sitting inside the engine compartment with the motor and the body visible then chances are your car was built in the 50s, 60s, or 70s.

Then there was the big time collector bragging about his cars, “The factory only built two of these, and I own all three!”

trimacarApr 12, 2021

Then there was the big time collector bragging about his cars, “The factory only built two of these, and I own all three!”

How many cars can we think of where they built 10 but only 20 still exist?

I once sold a 1960 Ford Sunliner (yes, not a Classic but an illustration).  Fellow said he had an Edsel sedan parts car, he was going to make the Sunliner into an Edsel convertible.

I think the numbers are something like 79 Edsel convertibles built in 1960, yet there are over 100 in existence........

The most frightening open car to buy is a Packard. Prolific when new..........and manufactured by the dozens in multiple years and body styles. I watched a a fake sell for over 600k and the seller and buyer had no clue........while a dozen guys sat back and kept their mouth shut..........it's too expensive today to get into trouble. The later 30's Packards are also all messed up, ten times worse than most people realize. It's not just the 32-34 cars. 

I would have to take my shoes off to count all the '32-'34 Packard Coupe Roadsters that I know started life as Coupes.  To be fair, if you found a '32-'34 Packard Coupe body skin with the roof removed  and the data plate missing it is virtually impossible to tell if that skin was from a coupe or a Coupe Roadster.  Would you restore it as a coupe or as a Coupe Roadster? 

Restorer32Apr 12, 2021

I would have to take my shoes off to count all the '32-'34 Packard Coupe Roadsters that I know started life as Coupes.  To be fair, if you found a '32-'34 Packard Coupe body skin with the roof removed  and the data plate missing it is virtually impossible to tell if that skin was from a coupe or a Coupe Roadster.  Would you restore it as a coupe or as a Coupe Roadster? 

I like the coupes and nobody will accuse you of building it from a convertible.

Do you view all “fakes” as the same.  Clearly a replacement body fabricated in the 1960-1990s is one category.  (which appears to be the case in the car that started this thread).  
 

Another  category is taking a 1938-1940 Cadillac series 75 convertible coupe body and placing it on a 1938-1940 Cadillac v-16 chassis.  Or putting a super 8 Packard body on a Packard v12 chassis of the same year.  I don’t love the idea of either but a body not fabricated by the mark is much worse than a period body. Or do you consider all equally bad.  
 

Cadillac FanApr 12, 2021

Do you view all “fakes” as the same.  Clearly a replacement body fabricated in the 1960-1990s is one category.  (which appears to be the case in the car that started this thread).  
 

Another  category is taking a 1938-1940 Cadillac series 75 convertible coupe body and placing it on a 1938-1940 Cadillac v-16 chassis.  Or putting a super 8 Packard body on a Packard v12 chassis of the same year.  I don’t love the idea of either but a body not fabricated by the mark is much worse than a period body. Or do you consider all equally bad. 

I real body swapped to a real chassis is higher in the pecking order than a fabricated body or fabricated chassis.

The car that is the subject of this thread is very nice and somebody can surely have some fun with it.   The problem is when the fabricated stuff gets pushed a real.    A real 32 twin six dual cowl has to be a 500-600k car if not more.    It will be interesting to see what this one brings.

My 1938 Super Eight convertible coupe Packard had a bad engine (as they all do).  I was offered a complete, running (I think) V-12 chassis with engine, ready to drop a body on, for a very reasonable price.

Bodies are identical.  Being a V-12 probably doubles the value.  I just couldn't do it, for many reasons.

It's interesting, though, particularly in the early cars.

I had a friend walk with me at Hershey one year, he's one of the guys that knows brass era cars backwards and forwards, and just about any significant (and many non-significant) cars are in his mind's database.  As we walked, he'd make comments like "Well, the entire back of that body was fabricated by Harrah's" or "That was a chassis at one time, all the sheet metal is reproduced).....quite an education in how cars over 100 years old have gone through a LOT of changes...

alsancleApr 12, 2021

I real body swapped to a real chassis is higher in the pecking order than a fabricated body or fabricated chassis.

The car that is the subject of this thread is very nice and somebody can surely have some fun with it.   The problem is when the fabricated stuff gets pushed a real.    A real 32 twin six dual cowl has to be a 500-600k car if not more.    It will be interesting to see what this one brings.

Yes. To me every thing is about disclosure.   I understand there are collectors who won’t touch anything with a story or a question. 

trimacarApr 12, 2021

My 1938 Super Eight convertible coupe Packard had a bad engine (as they all do).  I was offered a complete, running (I think) V-12 chassis with engine, ready to drop a body on, for a very reasonable price.

Bodies are identical.  Being a V-12 probably doubles the value.  I just couldn't do it, for many reasons.

It's interesting, though, particularly in the early cars.

I had a friend walk with me at Hershey one year, he's one of the guys that knows brass era cars backwards and forwards, and just about any significant (and many non-significant) cars are in his mind's database.  As we walked, he'd make comments like "Well, the entire back of that body was fabricated by Harrah's" or "That was a chassis at one time, all the sheet metal is reproduced).....quite an education in how cars over 100 years old have gone through a LOT of changes...

What is the fabrication (to some extent) rate on a brass car these days?   75% of all existing cars?

alsancleApr 12, 2021

What is the fabrication (to some extent) rate on a brass car these days?   75% of all existing cars?

I don’t know that it’s 75%, but a lot of cars have started out as piles of parts, and some cars have been made from whole cloth.  When you get early cars that can bring a million bucks, then spending hundreds of thousands to replicate still works.  Now, with Model T, there are probably more “new” ones being produced  than one can imagine, all those parts and pieces out there, repro hoods and fenders and speedster bodies, and not for much money either...

The most recent Jay Leno’s garage video features a “new” 1931 Duesenberg LaGrande Coupe. What are the thoughts on this one? I have no problem with it and think the world is better off with it, especially since Jay is not trying to conceal anything.

I think a lot of collectors would be surprised on the number of cars that have checkered pasts that are considered authentic, and even more people would be surprised on how many Classic era cars are still being created at this time from scratch.

Tph479Apr 13, 2021

The most recent Jay Leno’s garage video features a “new” 1931 Duesenberg LaGrande Coupe. What are the thoughts on this one? I have no problem with it and think the world is better off with it, especially since Jay is not trying to conceal anything.

I think a lot of collectors would be surprised on the number of cars that have checkered pasts that are considered authentic, and even more people would be surprised on how many Classic era cars are still being created at this time from scratch.

There are very few Duesenberg 3 window coupes.  The only two I can think of is the red Judkins and the aluminum topped Murphy that sold for $10,000,000.

I'll have to watch the video tonight but I'm sure Jay/Randy didn't destroy anything to make the coupe.   It is not "real" but it is certainly cool and it will never be passed of as something it is not.

“before”

Here’s the before the above “before”, rebodied chassis.  I think I like Jay’s rebody better.....of course

trimacarApr 13, 2021

Here’s the before the above “before”, rebodied chassis.  I think I like Jay’s rebody better.....of course

We don't give the coachbuilders of the era enough credit.

trimacarApr 13, 2021

Here’s the before the above “before”, rebodied chassis.  I think I like Jay’s rebody better.....of course

Looks like a duesenburg and 47 Cadillac had a child. 

Cadillac FanApr 13, 2021

Looks like a duesenburg and 47 Cadillac had a child. 

With a Bentley in a threesome, and a red headed step child at that   (no offense to any red headed step children out there, it's an old saying, not meant to offend, one has to be correct these days, I was going to say PC but don't want to put the P word in a post)...

Jay didn't exactly say it,  but the inference was that the chassis they used originally carried that style body.   Very well done.  Nice job Randy!

That coupe is just stunning. I can't imagine what it must have cost to create it from scratch. As in 1931, if you want an incredible Duesenberg with a custom body, you can apparently have one if you can afford it.

Matt HarwoodApr 14, 2021

That coupe is just stunning. I can't imagine what it must have cost to create it from scratch. As in 1931, if you want an incredible Duesenberg with a custom body, you can apparently have one if you can afford it.

I’m gonna guess 2 large ones or more.

alsancleApr 14, 2021

Jay didn't exactly say it,  but the inference was that the chassis they used originally carried that style body.   Very well done.  Nice job Randy!

 
Back in 2019 I was parked near the J Coupe that Jay brought to the San Marino show in Lacey Park. Randy always does great work, and the car was built from the ground up.......can’t remember if they had the actual plans or worked from photos........they told me about it, but I can’t remember. Fit, finish, and colors were very well done. It has a certain look to it that is unusual.........I can’t place my finger on it, bit it’s one of the very few closed J body styles that has what we call “presence”. Replacing an exact replica body on a chassis that had its coachwork destroyed is a incredible feat..........so many others would have done the easy way out and placed another “modern batch body” on it. I think it took a decade for them to get it done..........and it shows.

Car was built from the original plans.

edinmassApr 14, 2021

 
Back in 2019 I was parked near the J Coupe that Jay brought to the San Marino show in Lacey Park. Randy always does great work, and the car was built from the ground up.......can’t remember if they had the actual plans or worked from photos........they told me about it, but I can’t remember. Fit, finish, and colors were very well done. It has a certain look to it that is unusual.........I can’t place my finger on it, bit it’s one of the very few closed J body styles that has what we call “presence”. Replacing an exact replica body on a chassis that had its coachwork destroyed is a incredible feat..........so many others would have done the easy way out and placed another “modern batch body” on it. I think it took a decade for them to get it done..........and it 

Most likely the car in the video was the car you saw.  It has been done for a few years.

https://www.oldcarsweekly.com/blogs/story-behind-weeks-facebook-cover-photo

Yes, that's the car.

edinmassApr 12, 2021

You mean the guys who take a real car, cut it up and make two, three, and sometimes four “real” cars? It’s a simple mathematical term........... multiplication!

About 30 year ago there were two Rocknes that were for sale here locally. One was nice enough that could have been a 'patinaed driver' with a little spit'n'shine. and the other would have made a good restoration candidate, even though it was being sold with the other as a 'parts car'.  In the end, the individual who bought the two made them into one stretch limousine on a Dodge truck chassis with very less than stellar craftmanship.  

Craig

Mercedes 500k special roadster. In the background behind the houses, is the factory where they manufactured the Tuckers.

Nice,  looks like the Bob Day car?

I wouldn’t be surprised is this is something a little more “special” by this time.

Tph479Apr 18, 2021

I wouldn’t be surprised is this is something a little more “special” by this time.

Tim,

It is chassis # 408355 with body by Frejat.

alsancleApr 18, 2021

Tim,

It is chassis # 408355 with body by Frejat.

This looks like something Homer Simpson designed. I think this car gives the Father Divine Duesenberg some competition.

Tph479Apr 19, 2021

This looks like something Homer Simpson designed. I think this car gives the Father Divine Duesenberg some competition.

Do you like it better after Tom Barrett got his hands on it?   The color is called "Rosso Barrett".

Tph479Apr 19, 2021

This looks like something Homer Simpson designed. I think this car gives the Father Divine Duesenberg some competition.

I hope it held together better than the Duesenberg.  The 'Father Divine' car was known for being too heavy for its chassis.  

https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/forum/your-studebaker-forum/stove-huggers-the-non-studebaker-forum/50686-orphan-of-the-day-03-10-1937-duesenberg-model-j

Craig

alsancleApr 20, 2021

Do you like it better after Tom Barrett got his hands on it?   The color is called "Rosso Barrett".

Actually...  it was Jim Southard's shop at Classic Car Investments in Atlanta (Smyrna) that was responsible for the "restoration" of this car. I witnessed it being painted and put back together there in the mid 1970s. I remember that the rocker trim was purchased from a hardware store.

alsancleApr 13, 2021

There are very few Duesenberg 3 window coupes.  The only two I can think of is the red Judkins and the aluminum topped Murphy that sold for $10,000,000.

Jay also owns another 3-window coupe. The blue 1934 steamlined-looking job.

Restorer32Apr 12, 2021

I would have to take my shoes off to count all the '32-'34 Packard Coupe Roadsters that I know started life as Coupes.  To be fair, if you found a '32-'34 Packard Coupe body skin with the roof removed  and the data plate missing it is virtually impossible to tell if that skin was from a coupe or a Coupe Roadster.  Would you restore it as a coupe or as a Coupe Roadster? 

The 1932-33 Packard Eight/Super Eight/Twelve coupes are a much tougher job to turn into a coupe-roadster, as it is an entirely different body. The 1934 coupe is basically the same body as the coupe-roadster.

Dead accurate replica bodies usually bring 25-33% of the real thing.    This is about right.

In the late 60's I worked at Harrah's Automobile Collection. Harrah's commissioned Bill Honda owner of California Metal Shapers to build complete bodies for a Packard boat tail, several "Murphy bodies for Duesenbergs both roadsters and dual cowls. I remember stored in warehouses these fresh recreated bodies and pontoon fenders awaiting a donor chassis. 

I also remember the less desirable original bodies, coupes, sedans some very nice and others quite rough just sitting waiting for a potential buyer. I wonder now some 50 years later who owns the rebodied cars and if they know or knew when they purchased their new prize the "real " history

brasscarguy.   

brasscarguy2Oct 22, 2021

In the late 60's I worked at Harrah's Automobile Collection. Harrah's commissioned Bill Honda owner of California Metal Shapers to build complete bodies for a Packard boat tail, several "Murphy bodies for Duesenbergs both roadsters and dual cowls. I remember stored in warehouses these fresh recreated bodies and pontoon fenders awaiting a donor chassis. 

I also remember the less desirable original bodies, coupes, sedans some very nice and others quite rough just sitting waiting for a potential buyer. I wonder now some 50 years later who owns the rebodied cars and if they know or knew when they purchased their new prize the "real " history

brasscarguy.   

The Duesenberg owners probably do. But the Packard owners might not.

alsancleOct 22, 2021

The Duesenberg owners probably do. But the Packard owners might not.

brasscarguy2Oct 22, 2021

In the late 60's I worked at Harrah's Automobile Collection. Harrah's commissioned Bill Honda owner of California Metal Shapers to build complete bodies for a Packard boat tail, several "Murphy bodies for Duesenbergs both roadsters and dual cowls. I remember stored in warehouses these fresh recreated bodies and pontoon fenders awaiting a donor chassis. 

I also remember the less desirable original bodies, coupes, sedans some very nice and others quite rough just sitting waiting for a potential buyer. I wonder now some 50 years later who owns the rebodied cars and if they know or knew when they purchased their new prize the "real " history

brasscarguy.   

The Packard 734 Registry is well aware of which boattails are fake. There are only six completely authentic examples, plus one with a body swap with another, and at least another six-eight with replica bodies -- some on authentic chassis, some not.

West PetersonOct 27, 2021

The Packard 734 Registry is well aware of which boattails are fake. There are only six completely authentic examples, plus one with a body swap with another, and at least another six-eight with replica bodies -- some on authentic chassis, some not.

Is the Packard registry available to any owner?   Of course,  the Duesenberg info isn't exactly public.

alsancleOct 27, 2021

Is the Packard registry available to any owner?   Of course,  the Duesenberg info isn't exactly public.

Certain parts of it. Many of the notes are confidential, as are some of the identifying numbers.

Like Duesenbergs... One must do their due diligence before purchasing.