Classic Era Minerva

This is a Murphy dual cowl body on a Minerva chassis.  The car still existed in to the late 50s.   The picture is a still from the movie "The Devil to Pay". 1930.

I believe Steve Babinsky restored the green car. I did a story on Minerva in New York  for Hemmings Classic Car magazine not to long ago. The new York selling branch for Minerva Motors in Manhattan spent a fair amount of $ on full page advertisements in the Salon catalogs of the 1925-29 era, as did the Chicago branch.

alsancleNov 4, 2020

There are some scattered threads on Minerva in the forum but it certainly deserves a dedicated one.     Sleeve Valve engine equipped Belgian builder of high end cars from 1902 to 1938.

The eight cylinder "AL" was particularly interesting,  although they all had pretty big motors during the Classic era,  even the sixes.

This is a Rollston bodied car that I saw for sale at hershey years ago.

Actualy the first Minerva car was build in 1904, and the first sleeve valve apeared in 1908.  They build motorcycles from 1901 entil 1907.  And 1936 was bankrupt time.  Minerva engeneers had a new prototype of engine before ww I Called ' the Bournonville'  engine. It had rotary valves.  This engine was better and cheaper but due to WO I  it was not  succesful.  

I posted this in one of the other threads.  I think this car is still around.

Here is a link to Walt's great article.    Thanks Walt!!!

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/minerva-in-america

This picture is from Walt's article.   I challenge anyone to find me a bad looking Murphy body.

https://img.hmn.com/900x0/stories/2020/08/18152835/CC193-HOAD-03.jpg" data-ratio="45.13" width="800" src="https://img.hmn.com/900x0/stories/2020/08/18152835/CC193-HOAD-03.jpg" />

Hopefully, I can find some information on Canadian distribution.

As Walt suggested in a different thread, they may have been shipped to Canada through the London agent in England.

Craig

My main resources for information as to who was selling what , where and when are the Motor Show souvenir programs from London, Paris, Berlin and Brussels ( these all were about an inch or more thick and usually listed detailed information about the specific model of car, body style, specs for each car on display on a particular stand)  and in the USA the Salon souvenir catalogs ( custom coachwork) , plus periodicals of the era that were specific in their coverage of the annual automobile shows, and if you can have access to them the special newspaper sections of the main newspaper of the city the auto show was in that gives details and photographs, plus the advertisements list all the locations of the local dealers! There were also factory in house magazines that gave details - Dealer's only publications.

All of this is being stated here to try to help you know where to look! If you don't know what to ask or look for then you could be standing next to it and not give it a glance. This is how I do my research. I have been very fortunate to 1) first learn about their existence (most of this from the time I worked in Austin Clark's library 50 years ago)  2) have a keen eyed friend who was an auto book dealer in England look for what I wanted for me for 35-40 years, my friend author Michael Sedgwick put me on to this fellow as Michael used him as well.

Walt,  what color do you think that Murphy is in that picture?

alsancleNov 5, 2020

Walt,  what color do you think that Murphy is in that picture?

Tan......they must have a bunch of paint barrels of medium tan.......I have seen a dozen originals and most were tan.

edinmassNov 5, 2020

Tan......they must have a bunch of paint barrels of medium tan.......I have seen a dozen originals and most were tan.

It looks on the dark side for tan.

Sun is from the left low in the sky......makes it look darker. Check the shadows......its sundown.

Walt GNov 5, 2020

My main resources for information as to who was selling what , where and when are the Motor Show souvenir programs from London, Paris, Berlin and Brussels ( these all were about an inch or more thick and usually listed detailed information about the specific model of car, body style, specs for each car on display on a particular stand)  and in the USA the Salon souvenir catalogs ( custom coachwork) , plus periodicals of the era that were specific in their coverage of the annual automobile shows, and if you can have access to them the special newspaper sections of the main newspaper of the city the auto show was in that gives details and photographs, plus the advertisements list all the locations of the local dealers! There were also factory in house magazines that gave details - Dealer's only publications.

All of this is being stated here to try to help you know where to look! If you don't know what to ask or look for then you could be standing next to it and not give it a glance. This is how I do my research. I have been very fortunate to 1) first learn about their existence (most of this from the time I worked in Austin Clark's library 50 years ago)  2) have a keen eyed friend who was an auto book dealer in England look for what I wanted for me for 35-40 years, my friend author Michael Sedgwick put me on to this fellow as Michael used him as well.

Here is an example of a newspaper insert for the Toronto Auto Show:  https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=hqOjcs7Dif8C&dat=19130223&printsec=frontpage&hl=en  (scroll to end section)

They are interesting to read.  For a high-end car like Minerva, Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver would be the most likely cities in Canada to have a dealer for them.

Craig

I agree that the Murphy bodied conv. sedan was tan - there was more then one shade of tan! Often pre war was referred to as "drab" by the paint suppliers on their paint chips and also by the car manufacturers as well. Can you imagine post WWII era asking to buy a new car painted "drab medium".

Walt

Next to a soft gray, tan would show the design and surface development best without eliciting a strong emotional reaction to the color.  Murphy certainly wanted their custom-bodied cars to stand out from the run-of-the-mill cars on the street, with the elegance of the design instantly recognized.

Walt GNov 5, 2020

Can you imagine post WWII era asking to buy a new car painted "drab medium".

Now you ask for a "frozen" color if that's how you want your new BMW.  Mercedes Benz same 'drab' finish is their "Magno" line.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/news/industry-news/matte-paint-is-a-growing-trend-but-is-it-worth-the-extra-hassle-and-money/article32317159/

https://www.motor1.com/news/22619/mercedes-canada-announces-matte-paint-option-for-designo-program/

Craig

8E45ENov 6, 2020

Now you ask for a "frozen" color if that's how you want your new BMW.  Mercedes Benz same 'drab' finish is their "Magno" line.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/news/industry-news/matte-paint-is-a-growing-trend-but-is-it-worth-the-extra-hassle-and-money/article32317159/

https://www.motor1.com/news/22619/mercedes-canada-announces-matte-paint-option-for-designo-program/

Craig

What is old is new.    Toyota has a "Potato" color which looks like it sounds.

The Nerthcutt collection has this interesting '28 Minerva that I always enjoyed seeing back when I lived nearby.  It's a really cool-looking car.

(Internet picture.)

1935PackardNov 11, 2020

The Nerthcutt collection has this interesting '28 Minerva that I always enjoyed seeing back when I lived nearby.  It's a really cool-looking car.

Looks like a Hibbard and Darrin.    Also licensed to Derham I think.   Same body on a PI

alsancleNov 11, 2020

Looks like a Hibbard and Darrin.    Also licensed to Derham I think.   Same body on a PI

Interesting!  The Nethercutt one is by Floyd-Derham, some internet sources say. 

https://www.pbase.com/noyphoto/image/132562783

1935PackardNov 11, 2020

Interesting!  The Nethercutt one is by Floyd-Derham, some internet sources say. 

https://www.pbase.com/noyphoto/image/132562783

Look at me talking out of my ass and almost hitting the target.

alsancleNov 11, 2020

Look at me talking out of my ass and almost hitting the target.

We all suffer from verbal diarrhea at one time or another.....the trick is not to suffer from the explosive kind!

And, to be honest......I would have made the same faux pas ...................once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken. 

edinmassNov 11, 2020

We all suffer from verbal diarrhea at one time or another.....the trick is not to suffer from the explosive kind!

And, to be honest......I would have made the same faux pas ...................once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken. 

You mistake my comment as admitting a mistake.   Flyod-Derham and Derham are practically the same thing.  In fact, they may have the attribution wrong

I have only seen two Floyd Derham cars.....both were much uglier and less well built. So you may be correct.

Hibbard and Darrin licensed the rights to build that convertible phaeton and convertible coupe design to Derham, also to Gill in England and D'Iteren Freres in Belgium.   Someone knowledgeable in the nuances of the designs of how to tell who built which ones by the details will have to chime in.

58L-Y8Nov 11, 2020

Hibbard and Darrin licensed the rights to build that convertible phaeton and convertible coupe design to Derham, also to Gill in England and D'Iteren Freres in Belgium.   Someone knowledgeable in the nuances of the designs of how to tell who built which ones by the details will have to chime in.

Unfortunately, they are probably all six feet under.

https://www.coachbuild.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=2410

edinmassNov 11, 2020

I have only seen two Floyd Derham cars.....both were much uglier and less well built. So you may be correct.

Ed: What were the two Floyd-Derham bodied cars you've had a chance to examine?  If you can tell us without revealing current ownership.  I've read on the coachbuilt.com site and elsewhere that the short-lived Floyd-Derham firm contracted their body construction of the cars ordered with  Wolfington that was primarily a commercial body builder.  Perhaps the reason the build quality was less than stellar?

One was a Locomobile convertible sedan...........it was very vertical and unattractive. It had a lot of unusual custom features, including its own radiator design. The other was a Rolls English chassis rebodied and it was a closed car, also vertical.......but more traditional than the other one. Both cars left a poor impression on me. 

I think most of you know the story on this one.   What an awesome car.    I believe it is off to a well known restorer who happens to love original cars.

I had a lot of fun seeing that one in it's 50 plus yr. hiding spot - you would never have guessed it was in there. I personally liked it better without the discs, but I guess it cleans up the appearance? 

Image from Vanity Fair magazine in 1928 but the illustrator didn't get the hood length in proportion.

Walt GNov 18, 2020

Image from Vanity Fair magazine in 1928 but the illustrator didn't get the hood length in proportion.

First drawing I've ever seen where the car looks worse!

alsancleNov 5, 2020

I posted this in one of the other threads.  I think this car is still around.

Frank Dickson was also a Rolls Royce and Packard dealer, and he was a pilot.  Died unexpected on april 19 1960. His place called shenley garage in Pitssburg.

md murrayNov 18, 2020

I had a lot of fun seeing that one in it's 50 plus yr. hiding spot - you would never have guessed it was in there. I personally liked it better without the discs, but I guess it cleans up the appearance? 

I like the disks, but would have been nice to have them all match and have all the mounting parts too.

alsancleNov 18, 2020

I think most of you know the story on this one.   What an awesome car.    I believe it is off to a well known restorer who happens to love original cars.

I guess this is the one featured on Wayne Carini's  chasing classic cars ?

Eystein SedbergMay 5, 2021

I guess this is the one featured on Wayne Carini's  chasing classic cars ?

Yes.  Wayne and partner bought it from estate, ended up selling it at Gooding.  Went to a guy that loves original cars and sleeve valve cars.

The car now has an excellent home and a caring owner who will get the car on the road in time so we can all enjoy seeing and hearing it run.

alsancleNov 4, 2020

There are some scattered threads on Minerva in the forum but it certainly deserves a dedicated one.     Sleeve Valve engine equipped Belgian builder of high end cars from 1902 to 1938.

The eight cylinder "AL" was particularly interesting,  although they all had pretty big motors during the Classic era,  even the sixes.

This is a Rollston bodied car that I saw for sale at hershey years ago.

I'll quote myself.   I have seen this car in person and it is impressive,  although I'm not quite sure the treatment works as well as the Brewster Wind Swept Rolls.

Here it is prior to restoration.

Looks like Central Park.

Walt GMay 5, 2021

The car now has an excellent home and a caring owner who will get the car on the road in time so we can all enjoy seeing and hearing it run.

Last I knew it was fine..........the current owner took me for a ride in his 1903 Pierce last week..........quite a treat.

The Minerva sport phaeton by Murphy appeared in the April 1930 issue of SOCIAL magazine, published in La Habana. The Castagna Mercedes-Benz was owned by Al Jolson.

“This latest model, from one of the most important European factories - Belgium - is one of the highest exponents of modern automobile engineering. Its smooth suspension makes it one of the most comfortable in the world.  The almost absolute absence of engine noise has been the standard with which it has achieved worldwide popularity. The bodywork of this model is manufactured by Murphy, of California.
(Courtesy of “Minerva Autos Inc.”, N.Y.)”

The caption for the Mercedes-Benz…

“This formidable German factory introduces us to its famous model "SS", of 250 HP with which they can obtain effortlessly 107 MPH. Bodied by the most notable of Italian designers : Castagna.  This extraordinary model is a cabriolet convertible, sport, for 4 passengers.  Its speed records on European tracks are currently the most remarkable.
(Courtesy of "Mercedes-Benz Cg." Inc., N.Y.)”

I love this picture of a young dad and and his toddler -  1931 Minerva AL Convertible Sedan by Rollston, at the RM/ Sotheby's 2013 Art Of The Automobile auction, New York.

 
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/ny13/new-york---art-of-the-automobile/lots/r124-1931-minerva-al-convertible-sedan-by-the-rollston-company/296133

TG

So many interesting cars at Monterey this year.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo22/monterey/lots/p0022-1929-minerva-am-convertible-sedan-by-murphy/1252979

Neat car for half the cost of restoration.

edinmassJul 1, 2022

Neat car for half the cost of restoration.

1/2?

I gather it didn't sell, with a 300-450k estimate, back in 2018: 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24811/lot/59/?category=list

Quite the opening to the 2018 Bonhams listing:

"Anyone who has been overtaken by a car with a sleeve valve engine will have the memory branded into their brain. First comes the surprise caused by a silent machine coming out of nowhere, as no engine noise gave warning of its approach. Then, the passing, still silent, with only the whoosh from the tires on the pavement to accompany the rush. Followed by the squinting and coughing as you desperately try to see where you are going, immersed in a dense cloud of smoke and fumes, a smog that most certainly does not smell of roses..."

alsancleJul 1, 2022

1/2?

Estimate is 150-200

1935PackardJul 1, 2022

I gather it didn't sell, with a 300-450k estimate, back in 2018: 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24811/lot/59/?category=list

Quite the opening to the 2018 Bonhams listing:

"Anyone who has been overtaken by a car with a sleeve valve engine will have the memory branded into their brain. First comes the surprise caused by a silent machine coming out of nowhere, as no engine noise gave warning of its approach. Then, the passing, still silent, with only the whoosh from the tires on the pavement to accompany the rush. Followed by the squinting and coughing as you desperately try to see where you are going, immersed in a dense cloud of smoke and fumes, a smog that most certainly does not smell of roses..."

Obviously they didn't have me fix their car.........ours doesn't smoke a whiff.  

edinmassJul 1, 2022

Estimate is 150-200

You think you could restore that car for 300k?

edinmassJul 1, 2022

Obviously they didn't have me fix their car.........ours doesn't smoke a whiff.  

This is true.

I’ve said it before we should rename Ed to “The Wizard” !
He makes all the magic happen behind the curtain. 
dave s 

SC38dlsJul 1, 2022

I’ve said it before we should rename Ed to “The Wizard” !
He makes all the magic happen behind the curtain. 
dave s 

Nope…….I can’t print here what 99 percent of the people call me………..especially my family and friends. 

alsancleJul 1, 2022

You think you could restore that car for 300k?

No, but back in  the day it was a 400k restoration……… so the numbers I was providing were from 20 years ago. 

edinmassJul 1, 2022

Obviously they didn't have me fix their car.........ours doesn't smoke a whiff.  

Certainly an incredibly cool car if you can also buy the rare Edminnieator desmoker.

SC38dlsJul 1, 2022

I’ve said it before we should rename Ed to the Wizard! 
He makes all the magic happen behind the curtain. 
dave s 

Ed is a savant but he did have some very important help from Mark Young.

alsancleJul 2, 2022

Ed is a savant but he did have some very important help from Mark Young.

Lots of help from Mark………couldn’t have done it without him.

alsancleNov 4, 2020

There are some scattered threads on Minerva in the forum but it certainly deserves a dedicated one.     Sleeve Valve engine equipped Belgian builder of high end cars from 1902 to 1938.

The eight cylinder "AL" was particularly interesting,  although they all had pretty big motors during the Classic era,  even the sixes.

This is a Rollston bodied car that I saw for sale at hershey years ago.

Not Mine - For Sale on BAT

1926 Minerva AF Town Car by Paul Ostruk Co.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1926-minerva-af-town-car/

Rear tires don't look centered in fenders - is something off - or is it designed for heavy passengers ???

Very cool Minerva.  I would own that in a heartbeat. I like them as much as any PII Rolls. 

classiclinesJun 6, 2024

Not Mine - For Sale on BAT

1926 Minerva AF Town Car by Paul Ostruk Co.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1926-minerva-af-town-car/

Rear tires don't look centered in fenders - is something off - or is it designed for heavy passengers ???

Springs were over-arched with is a common screw up.

BAT High Bid    USD $100,000 (Reserve Not Met)
Auction Ended    Monday, June 10 at 10:00am

Dealer: Dick Shappy Vintage Auto Sales, Providence, Rhode Island

Price on website now lists car at $185,000 (price not posted until auction over)

Even at 185k, your buying the restoration for 33 cents on the dollar, and the car is free..........

This just came up in conversation the other day. Sold overseas in 2005. Anybody know where it went?