Dupont

I was looking at the Waterhouse Model G on Wednesday in St Louis. Decent older restoration. I tried to buy a speedster right after I got out of college. Made  my best offer with money I still hadn't managed to accumulate, I was still 35k short back in 1991. I have managed to save up the rest of the money as of today. Now I'm short about 800k. Twenty six years later and they are still going up in value..........where's my T?

Has there ever been a bad looking Waterhouse bodied car?  I think not.

I promised Al if he started a thread I would add an original photo and Stan Smith's research on such -  I will have to do some homework about where is is in the library.

By the way, the H dual cowl (white and Black) - why have I never seen an original photo of this as a new car - not like it would ever go unnoticed in the 30's ?

I don't have Stan's book handy,  does he have a picture of it?

Somewhere buried in my car stuff, I have info and literature of them building the last cars in Springfield Massachusetts. Does anyone else have anything on them in Springfield? Interesting to think that DuPont and Rolls Royce were in the same town making cars at the same time. 

I think the only cars built in Springfield were the 3 Model H's on the Stearn's chassis.

The factory letters I have say Springfield. I think the printed literature does also, but it's been 25 years since I have looked at the stuff.

E. Paul Dupont had bought Indian motors around 1931 and they moved the entire engineering staff from Delaware to Springfield.  It would be interesting to see what you have.  Maybe my Stutz picture will be in the lot.

Maybe MY Stutz picture will be in the lot................?

edinmassJun 14, 2017

Maybe MY Stutz picture will be in the lot................?

Funny boy.

So who remembers the car that started it all for J.B. Nethercutt?  Found on a used car lot in the 1950s, it was J.B.'s first restoration and an early Pebble BOS.

Awesome Car (and I do not say that about "Town Cars" too often).  And, enjoyed both CCCA articles on it when first done and more recent update (including photos of it when "found").

In 2011, I  had the pleasure of closely inspecting that lone surviving model H in its owner's garage.  It is perhaps the most stunning car I have ever seen.  it really takes your breath away.

I had the luck to see and hear a Dupont running around the basement garage at the Peterson Auto Museum in Los Angeles a few years back. It looked and sounded great!

Speaking of the Nethercutt Dupont,  here it is when my wife and I visited the collection last year.  You need to all ahead for a reservation but the tour is free and fantastic.

If the one that´s at The Nethercutt is not a Classic Car, I don´t know what is. Here are a couple more.

Is there such thing as an interior photo of this Town Car - I have never seen one and am curious all be it I assume it is "modern" aka very plain & simple ?

alsancleJun 11, 2017

This is the lone known surviving model H.

And, I would still love to see a photo of this car as new.

John_MerenessSep 20, 2017

And, I would still love to see a photo of this car as new.

I'll check Stan Smith's book, but I think the earliest picture I have ever seen is the 1950s.

OK.  I was wrong.   In deference to Stan, I don't want to scan his book but there is a picture of H-1002 (The sport Phaeton) on page 92 pictured at the NY Auto Show.   In the appendix is notes the double rear spare treatment and the fact it was at the Show.

Something I didn't realize was that the body was framed by Dupont and finished by J. Marshall of the Merrimac body company (which I think was defunct at that point).   I had always seen the car attributed to Merrimac.

The picture I was thinking of was taken in 1958 and is on a following page.

Anybody reading this thread should buy Stan's Smith's book!!!!!

Have you seen this photograph?

According to the note on the back, the older gentleman standing in front of the DuPont is Mr. DuPont himself. The photo was taken by Chapin Waldor at a very early car meet somewhere in the greater Boston area, probably around 1947. The Bugatti is pretty good too!

That is a great photo.  Notice the Ascott and the SS in the back?

The Ascott would have been Steve Antine's car, in the family from New as I remember. It was the first Springfield P1 I ever drove. It recently was sold by RM. That would have been a VMCCA meet, possibly at the Quabbin  Reservoir. I'm sure the Fred Roe photo collection would have more photos and photos of the individual cars.

I have more photos also. This is from Alden Handy's photo album. Handy was a friend of Waldor and an accomplished photographer himself. I know he was at the opening of the Lars Anderson museum because I have his photos of the event and his admission ticket.

I knew Steve Antine as a member of the local VMCCA chapter in the 70s.

jeff_aSep 20, 2017

If the one that´s at The Nethercutt is not a Classic Car, I don´t know what is.

Where you been ?    EVERYTHING must be called a "classic" these days.

 What are you telling us...that you are one of those knuckle-draggers who dare still use the term "used" car, or " neat old" car,  or "car from the 1920"....or "car from the 1930"  ?

Shame on you....wake up.....I bet you cant go to a fast food joint, a plumber's shop,  or even a grocery store without finding more and more things are called "classic".

Go back under your rock..i know where you are coming from...you are probably one of those  silly old grouches who thinks the word "classic" means something OTHER than      " I have this thing I want to unload".....!

Yes - there WAS a time when the term "antique car" meant a car that had "antique" features...such as a "T" head motor....only "external contracting" brakes on the rear wheels only,  carbide operated headlights ( who remembers how to turn on the headlights of a REAL antique car...hint...carefully...!).  and the word "classic" was limited to only the "top-of-the-line"   largest, most powerful  super luxury cars of the late 1920's up to the start of World War II.

But those days are gone, along with the way  folks used language then.  So stop asking questions on how folks like to use the words "classic"...or, for that matter "antique" these days.

P.S.   Who remembers when Jack brought that thing to his first GRAND CLASSIC...all so pretty and perfectly restored...( no...not JB..i am referring to the Du Pont....!)     and then...at judging...the durn horn wouldn't work......!

Yeah, I appreciate the traditional term Classic Car, but I just drove downtown to have a Classic Coke (TM). For some reason, I´m attracted more to the earlier part of the spectrum of Classic Cars. I would rather have a ´22 Leland Lincoln or a ´26 Packard Single Six than a ´38 Cadillac or ´41 Lincoln(not that I could afford any of them). That reminds me of a story I read once you might appreciate. In a memoir of a WWII infantryman, American soldiers somewhere in Europe were taking five. A bunch of them were exchanging pictures of their girlfriends or wives, but this guy was showing his buddy a picture of The Most Beautiful Car Ever Built(in his opinion), a 1941 Lincoln Continental. To his surprise, his pal countered by showing him a photo of a 1936 Cord 810. I guess it´s all a matter of taste.

His pal nailed it, maybe not the absolute most beautiful car ever, but the Cord 810/812 is surely in the top five.  Everyone loves the looks of a Cord, love of the looks of a Lincoln Continental is really more of an individual choice.

What a gearhead: alone (figuratively speaking), across the ocean, fighting for freedom and your life, not knowing if life or death awaits, and one carries car pictures in one's pocket......wow.....

It's not really any of my business what other people like, but I have the exact opposite view of both the Cord and the Lincoln... I've never like any of the coffin-nose Cords and never understood why they were so much admired. I'm not quite as put off the the '41 Continental but I'd take a '22 Packard or certainly any Silver Ghost or PI over either of them regardless of body style.

I'm reminded of something my former employer told me. His brother had a Cord roadster. Ted (my employer) loved the way it looked... he'd say "It was a magnificent car. A crowd would gather everywhere it broke down."

Joe,  a well maintained Cord is as reliable as any other prewar car.  The key issue being "well maintained".   There is quite a styling spread between 1930 and 1936.  Compare the differences between just about any 1930 car and any 1936 car.  For me,  1932 is the prime prewar year for general esthetics.   Just about everybody made a good looking car that year.  

As the saying goes:  "There is an A** for every seat".

I agree that 1932 was an extremely good year. Actually, I tend to feel it's all gone downhill from there. But, that requires that the main focus be on what it looks like rather than what it works like... I tend to feel the great age of automotive engineering was over by about 1925 and that most everything since has been an improvement on existing ideas. But... How boring would it be if everyone liked the same thing?

Back in the 70s I did business with a local company, Palmer Spring, in business since the 1830s. At the time, the "old timer" (he may have been a member of the Palmer family) that ran the place had been there since the 20s. One day he reminisced to me about an beautiful L29 he could have bought for a pittance when it was only two or three years old... after the 4th or 5th time it had broken a front spring and the owner was so disgusted with it that he was ready to just about give it away. It seems it couldn't handle car tracks very well, especially if you hit one when turning. We don't have many car tracks left to run into - or railroad tracks either so I'm not sure a modern driver would even be aware there was a problem. I suspect there is a lot of that where conditions have changed radically in the last 100 years. We probably have a fairly distorted vision of what driving in the mid 30s or earlier was like.

alsancleSep 27, 2017

Joe,  a well maintained Cord is as reliable as any other prewar car.  The key issue being "well maintained".   There is quite a styling spread between 1930 and 1936.  Compare the differences between just about any 1930 car and any 1936 car.  For me,  1932 is the prime prewar year for general esthetics.   Just about everybody made a good looking car that year.  

As the saying goes:  "There is an A** for every seat".

As far as drive-ability, I would tell you that a 1935/1936 Auburn 8 to be the second finest driving pre -1953 cars made and a well sorted Cord 810/812 is the first finest driving pre-1953 car.  One of the keys of the Auburn was that in the process to make a cost effective car they deleted a lot of unessential weight (which allows for very nice handling feel) matched to decent horsepower and gearing.  As to the Cord, it too is lighter weight than comparable cars it's size and also good horsepower and gearing. 

The key to what John is saying is "well sorted", or maybe a better way of putting it is "restored to new".

I have a Cord 812 that has never been restored, and while it runs and drives fine, you can tell by the way it handles that it's worn...heavy steering, doesn't like sharp turns, and so forth.

On the other side of the coin, I've driven a perfectly restored Cord 812, and it was an absolute delight.  Easy steering, very responsive, and, as John states, one of the best driving cars of the 30's.

It ALL depends on condition of mechanical components.

We just got a '27 Dodge cabriolet back on the road, a car that someone would probably say is "trucky" driving.  This car has rebuilt mechanicals, including a refurbished steering gear, and it is an absolute delight to driver, easy to steer and comfortable to drive, not "trucky" at all...

Drive-ability "as new" is a concept few people ever "get right"  in a restoration - they may make the attempt, but it takes plenty of additional work to get there - it is not uncommon for me to tackle something several times until it is right (and it is usually not for lack of a comprehensive first try - it is some sort of anomaly that happens when restoring 30's cars).   A good example is that you generally at some time or another will find my cars on the local race track front end engineering guys Hunter alignment rack - he has set several up per the owner's manual to say "what were they thinking, I think they wrote this wrong or ... - this must be a guide for a starting point when you are at zero ground") and then he tweaks and it is the difference between night and day (and my guess was it was day or close to day to begin with).

So, when we have an Auburn out a lot of people shift the conversation to Cords:  When they ask about Cords my dad has a line of Questions/Answers:

1. Are you an engineer ?

If answer is no, then

2. Are you handy ?

If the answer is no then

3. Do you have a lot of disposable income ?

And, if the answer is no, then reply is:

"You really need one of the three to successfully own a Cord or you will never be happy with anything other than its looks"

By the way:  Given this is the DuPont page, I would tell you what I like about the DuPont appears to have a component part manufacture mentality as to its drivetrain  and I would think you could get one to do what it is supposed to and have an easier time of it than most other of its peers. 

I can imagine a Cord being pretty mind blowing to the average mechanic when new matched to such as a RRPI or .....

I like you father's questions, but I'd probably say they pertain to most old cars or, at least those that aren't the cookie-cutter mass consumption products. It would be pretty near universally true of brass cars too (except maybe the Model T, which has been studied ad nauseam). I'm always surprised by the number of people involved with old cars that seem to only be interested in what they look like.

 Here are a couple of photos of a 1930 DuPont that I had for a time while selling it for the family of a friend who passed away. 

Steve, I think that car is now in the midwest?   Waterhouse body is fantastic.   Thanks for posting it.

Here is the ad for this model posted by Jeff over in the Peerless thread.  I think they made a total of 4 or 5.

Beautiful car pughs had for a while. Same as the illustration in every way. I had it posted because it shows in print the 140 h.p. the 322 Continental straight eight is capable of, according to Du Pont Motors.

The 140 HP was a pipe dream. Maybe 115, maybe.

The 1930 Dupont Victoria Coupe has been re-restored by it's current owner. here are a couple of photos of the way it looks now.

edinmassNov 4, 2017

The 140 HP was a pipe dream. Maybe 115, maybe.

Eddy, you are not as appreciative of the Dupont as you should be.  Those Continentals were completely torn down and rebuilt to higher spec by Dupont.  140 may be a bit high, but everybody was guilty of that including Duesenberg.

I like your new avatar. I have played around with one of the DuPont cars, (speedster) they look nice. I would like to own one. They float my boat in many ways, but as a chassis and platform, I am underwhelmed. Think early Auburn eight, and toss on a very heavy body in the Waterhouse instance. The carburation and ignition were Stude President in their approach. I would call them good lower to mid range chassis of the era for their level of quaility as compared to most other Classics. I have recently inspected the Waterhouse car, it seems to be a twenty year old restoration that has been driven several thousand miles. The body seems to overpower the chassis. I like it, and would own it in a heartbeat. I think the biggest reason it suffers the way it does is production was almost nil. Put the body on a 385 CID Pierce, Packard, or Chrysler, and the engine and chassis upgrades look substantial. Ed

The Model H was a 1928 design, sold 28-30.  So it is earlier than the big eight cars you are comparing it to.  I know drivability is king for you, while I fall for rarity and coolness.   

AJ, your missing the BIG picture........anything I drive IS cool!

pughsNov 1, 2017

 Here are a couple of photos of a 1930 DuPont that I had for a time while selling it for the family of a friend who passed away. 

I thought this Dupont had a really good look to it in the Dark Brown (all be it's re-restoration is much more flashy and shows off the body lines more) a really good period look - fell in love with it when featured on CCCA magazine cover eons ago.

Here are a couple of photos of it when found.  There is a great article on the car in the June 1983 "The Classic Car" where these photos came from.

A few more comments on the Waterhouse from the CCCA article:

1.  The gentleman that restored it the first time bought it in the early 50s when he was still a kid.  He went to look at a car that was supposed to be a 540k but ended up bring a K, but this was sitting nearby.  He owned it a long time.

2.  It was built for the 32 NY autoshow and was shown along with the only 2 model H DuPont's built.

3.  There are no other known Waterhouse Victoria survivors.

4. Originally it was all brown.

I thinks Stan might still have a few copies of this.  Everybody on this thread should own a copy.   I'm pushing this to the top in honor of the "lost classics" thread.

Somebody asked if this one still existed in the "lost classics" thread.

I photographed this one for a feature story in Antique Automobile.

West, I saw the car you photographed while it was under restoration in Steve Babinsky's shop in Lebanon, NJ several years ago. It was a solid car to begin with and the choice of colors etc just work so well and do not over power the really great lines of the car. To me, it looks exactly like the car would have /could have appeared when new.  Great restraint was show to not add a lot of period accessories and overload it . Thanks for sharing this with all of us.

Walt

West PetersonDec 15, 2018

I photographed this one for a feature story in Antique Automobile.

Is that the one owned by the guy in Penn that drove it to Hershey a few years ago?

Did that car survive John?  I don't recall it in circulation.

Coming up for auction is the Victoria we were discussing.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/gc19/the-guyton-collection/lots/r0037-1930-du-pont-model-g-convertible-victoria-by-waterhouse/750681

alsancleFeb 20, 2019

Did that car survive John?  I don't recall it in circulation.

This  Convertible Coupe  is a close  parallel/equivalent, though do not know its story.

Close match in another Convertible Sedan

John_MerenessFeb 20, 2019

This  Convertible Coupe  is a close  parallel/equivalent, though do not know its story.

Is that in the AACA museum?   There was a coupe at one of the Boca Raton shows I was at and we were parked in the same circle as it.  It surprisingly got very little attention, but I guess being parked next to a J, CL, couple of PA 12 coupes, etc,  made it look small.

There are a few living in the Miami Beach area, but they seldom get out.

Anyone want to play guess the hammer price on the car coming up for sale at RM in Saint Louis?

edinmassFeb 20, 2019

Anyone want to play guess the hammer price on the car coming up for sale at RM in Saint Louis?

Yikes, this is a tough one to guess price https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/gc19/the-guyton-collection/lots/r0037-1930-du-pont-model-g-convertible-victoria-by-waterhouse/750681 - super rare car, very attractive body, very older restore with older restored extensive updating to that, decent market exists for it and they never come up for sale, but for some reason I do not think it will 1MM plus like this Stutz https://rmsothebys.com/am16/amelia-island/lots/1931-stutz-dv-32-convertible-victoria-by-rollston/1078714 .  I am thinking 775-825K

I'll chime in at 650-700

A real Rollston bodied SV16 which is a pretty good comp is probably a 800k car.   I'm going to say that it brings that much.  

We are all only caretakers, but I am lucky to own this body on a Lincoln K........

jcrowFeb 27, 2019

We are all only caretakers, but I am lucky to own this body on a Lincoln K........

Photo ?

Here you go

Waterhouse? Nice. You should post it to the lincoln thread.

Waterhouse, yes.

Nice Waterhouse. Is that the one Harry A use to own out west? Is it a KB?

Sweet Lincoln !!!

It is a KB. I believe it is the only 31 Lincoln Waterhouse Victoria Convertible. Prior owner was Otis Chandler.

I'm not  really a Lincoln expert,  but wasn't the KB introduced in 32?

Once owned by Mr. A.J. Hoe (1934-1938) who drive it from Calif. to N.Y. in four days. (Dark blue with red wheels).

This is from my slide collection.  A young Stan Smith with his father's car.

From today’s Eastern Grand Classic.   Car came from Bill DuPont and owner told me it is the only known surviving roadster.

Stan Smith's dad's car at the 1957 Cape May Tour.

Here is a link to the video: 

alsancleJul 14, 2019

From today’s Eastern Grand Classic.   Car came from Bill DuPont and owner told me it is the only known surviving roadster.

And now for sale by Mark Hyman.

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6586-1929-dupont-model-g-waterhouse-roadster/

Since building a massive fortune in the gunpowder business during the 19th century, the du Pont family rose to prominence as one of America's most powerful industrial families. In the early 20th century, their interests expanded into the chemical industry, and then automobiles. Pierre S. du Pont was a crucial figure in rescuing General Motors after the notoriously unpredictable William "Billy" Durant nearly ran the company into the ground. Best known today for their global chemical business, the du Pont clan has been involved in a great many industries over time. One of the most intriguing projects was the Du Pont automobile of 1919-1930, a distinguished motorcar worthy of a famous family name.

1. Paul du Pont registered Du Pont Motors just before the outbreak of World War I, initially to build marine engines. Following the Armistice, the company shifted its focus to automobile production. As to not conflict with Pierre du Pont's interests in General Motors, the Du Pont automobile sat in the upper echelon of the market, along with Stutz, Pierce-Arrow, and the like. In a deliberate move to help the car stand out in a competitive market, Du Pont chose the 1919 International Salon rather than the New York Auto Show to debut the first model. Period advertisements proclaimed the Du Pont was "As aristocratic as its name."

The earliest Du Ponts used four-cylinder engines designed and built in-house, but later they switched to Herschell-Spillman, then Wisconsin engines, the latter being known for powering the original Stutz Bearcat. In 1929 Du Pont introduced its most famous, and most popular model of all, the Model G. It featured a 322 cubic-inch eight-cylinder L-head supplied by Continental engine and chassis options ranging from 125-inches to a stately 150-inches in wheelbase, with a range of spectacular bodies by prestigious builders including Merrimac, Derham, and Waterhouse. The Model G offered exceptional quality and high levels of performance. The raciest offering was a 2-seat speedster, which inspired a four-seat tourer that ran in the 1929 Le Mans 24 hour race, carrying the American flag alongside Stutz and Chrysler. The Du Pont showed promising performance but was eventually sidelined by mechanical troubles. The Model G proved to be Du Pont's final production car, as the receivers moved in after just 273 cars (and 3 Model H chassis). Like many of their counterparts in the prestige automobile market, the stock market crash that triggered the Great Depression sealed Du Pont Motors' fate, and despite their financial standings, the du Pont family saw no reason to keep the project afloat.

Presented in the splendid original shade of Sarasota Blue, this stunning Du Pont Model G is the only surviving example to feature the gorgeous 2-seat roadster coachwork by Waterhouse of Webster, Massachusetts. Chassis number G840 has a fascinating history, having been cared for by several noted collectors, including William F. Harrah and the du Pont family. This particular car is the sole surviving Waterhouse-bodied roadster, personally designed by Du Pont's Pacific Coast agent, Mr. E.A. Van Trump Jr, denoted by a special plaque on the dash. The specification includes a 142-inch wheelbase chassis, and the so-called West Coast Package, which added chrome wire wheels, radiator stone guard, winged radiator mascot, and single-tone paint on the body and fenders with a cream accent panel on the door. Standard cars generally had black wings and painted wheels, so this car's paint scheme and bright chrome give it a sophisticated and sporty character. Waterhouse is widely known for bodies of exquisite quality and style, and this car is certainly no exception. Mr. Van Trump presumably used the vehicle as a demonstrator before selling it in 1930 to its first private owner, Mr. Charles W. List of Los Angeles, who paid $6,500 for the privilege of owning this unique and prestigious Du Pont Model G.

List owned the car for 22 years, holding on to it through the darkest period of the Great Depression. He then sold it to Samuel Timpson of Inglewood, California, who owned it for the next 11 years. In 1963, G840 joined the world-famous collection of William F. Harrah in Reno, Nevada. The Du Pont remained a part of the collection until 1984 – four years after Harrah's death. It was purchased at a Harrah's auction by another world-famous collector, John Mozart. At the time of Mozart's purchase, the car was tired but remarkably complete, needing a full restoration. It stayed with Mozart briefly before returning to its roots in the hands of William K. du Pont. Before taking delivery, du Pont gave the car to Stu Laidlaw in California for a full restoration.

The initial restoration is well-documented through receipts and correspondence. In 1989, it returned to Delaware for the first time since 1930, back in the original family's hands. S/N G840 remained in the du Pont family collection for the following 27 years, only appearing occasionally at shows and special exhibits. The most recent owner acquired it from the du Pont family in 2012. At the time, the 1980s restoration was due for a refresh, so the new owner enlisted Steve Babinsky's highly-respected Automotive Restorations in Lebanon, New Jersey. Babinsky performed a world-class refurbishment to spectacular concours standards, completed in 2015. Numerous details were discovered to be unique to this car, including the build plaque with Mr. Van Trump's name, and the Du Pont-branded spring gaiters. The fit and finish of the coachwork are exemplary of Waterhouse's typically high standards, and the presentation is sublimely elegant in its original paint color, with subtle light blue accents, a straw-colored band in the door, and lush, dark blue leather interior.

Since its restoration, this stunning du Pont has participated in a handful of select concours events, scoring a class award at the 2015 Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance. It also earned an AACA Senior National First Prize at Hershey in 2017, scoring 100 points and winning Best Open Car in its class, and a 100-point CCCA Senior First Prize. It remains in breathtaking, meticulously-detailed condition. As the sole-surviving Du Pont to feature this gorgeous Roadster coachwork by Waterhouse and exceptionally well-documented history, G840 is a superb choice for entry in the world's premier concours and touring events.

Offers welcome and trades considered

$1,250,000

Makes some sence - I have seen more photos of this car this year than ... - I was always told that if you want top dollar you had better get it out and show it a couple times prior (obviously does not apply to anything, though it is a good rule of thumb nevertheless). 

John_MerenessNov 19, 2019

Makes some sence - I have seen more photos of this car this year than ... - I was always told that if you want top dollar you had better get it out and show it a couple times prior (obviously does not apply to anything, though it is a good rule of thumb nevertheless). 

I've been told the same thing about showing, but I'm not sure I agree.   Wouldn't you rather have something nobody has seen in the last 50 years?

As for top dollar,  it seems to be that way.  Especially given what a bargain the Guyton victoria was.     But,  compared to the Cunningham,  would you say they are giving the Dupont away?

alsancleNov 19, 2019

I've been told the same thing about showing, but I'm not sure I agree.   Wouldn't you rather have something nobody has seen in the last 50 years?

As for top dollar,  it seems to be that way.  Especially given what a bargain the Guyton victoria was.     But,  compared to the Cunningham,  would you say they are giving the Dupont away?

Sort of the problem - you want people to know the car, but you also want to be able to show it yourself.  I ran the Franklin around to a few Concours events, won its 1st  CCCA badge - I would say it allowed me an extra 20K on the sale via the badge matched to allowing quite a bit of word of mouth that it was a quality restoration. 

The Guyton cars suffered from all needing a few thousand of attention (aka, most had sat lot enough they needed road-worthiness and most needed a thorough detailing).

The Cunningham at anything over 100K  will be going nowhere for a long long time (and I am being generous in this comment) - Has strong potential though to be a really cool car on the showfield. 

John_MerenessNov 21, 2019

Sort of the problem - you want people to know the car, but you also want to be able to show it yourself.  I ran the Franklin around to a few Concours events, won its 1st  CCCA badge - I would say it allowed me an extra 20K on the sale via the badge matched to allowing quite a bit of word of mouth that it was a quality restoration. 

The Guyton cars suffered from all needing a few thousand of attention (aka, most had sat lot enough they needed road-worthiness and most needed a thorough detailing).

The Cunningham at anything over 100K  will be going nowhere for a long long time (and I am being generous in this comment) - Has strong potential though to be a really cool car on the showfield. 

I'm probably fixating on one off stuff and rarely or never seen models.   Probably for the  production run Caddy or Packard or whatever I think I see your point that some show pedigree is helpful.    For the former stuff,  you could be goofing up a Pebble Beach invite by having its unvailing somewhere else first.

Agreed the Guyton cars suffered from sitting,  but I pegged that Waterhouse Dupont at 5-600k and was plenty surprised at the result.

Given the fully restored (with receipts for 250k) and much more attractive club sedan at Bonhams brought 80k I going with a  25k-50k estimate on the towncar.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25221/lot/81/

Btw,   I saw a guy laugh off a 99.5 senior badge at an auction as "only CCCA judging".    Personally,  I think a high 90s senior badge means you are looking at a really nice cosmetic car that is probably mostly correct but possibly not be perfect.

Yes, but 99.5 means the car is cosmetically excellent up and down, all gauges work, all lights work, windshield wipers work, there's no significant corrosion in cooling system, and car starts and rens with no bad noises.  The only thing a CCCA judging doesn't tell you is how well car drives.

AACA judging means the car is excellent, cosmetically, and that's it.

alsancleNov 19, 2019

And now for sale by Mark Hyman.

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6586-1929-dupont-model-g-waterhouse-roadster/

Well,,, that's freakin' discouraging. I was just about to feature the car in Antique Automobile after photographing it at Hershey last year. !@#$%^&

West PetersonNov 21, 2019

Well,,, that's freakin' discouraging. I was just about to feature the car in Antique Automobile after photographing it at Hershey last year. !@#$%^&

You can't feature a car that's currently for sale?  Or some other reason?

I do not knowingly feature a car that is currently for sale.

Interesting that I have never seen the roadster before.....in photos or person. I really like it, as the unusual and obscure appeal to me. I tried to buy a speedster back just after college but even though I had what I though would buy the car.........I was short......... I needed to double what I had...... and that wasn’t going to happen. Now they are in the seven figures.........assuming you can find a speedster for sale. I don’t think any will be available in the foreseeable future.

The more I look at the roadster, the more I like it.

edinmassNov 22, 2019

Interesting that I have never seen the roadster before.....in photos or person. I really like it, as the unusual and obscure appeal to me. I tried to buy a speedster back just after college but even though I had what I though would buy the car.........I was short......... I needed to double what I had...... and that wasn’t going to happen. Now they are in the seven figures.........assuming you can find a speedster for sale. I don’t think any will be available in the foreseeable future.

The more I look at the roadster, the more I like it.

waterhouse is like Dietrich in that they never made an ugly body.

alsancleNov 22, 2019

waterhouse is like Dietrich in that they never made an ugly body.

I agree.........but a few of the other major builders would often build what the customer would draw or request. Rollston built some very square and ugly town cars.

edinmassNov 22, 2019

I agree.........but a few of the other major builders would often build what the customer would draw or request. Rollston built some very square and ugly town cars.

Minor correction  Ed.  "Rollson" built some very ugly towncars.   I think before the name change & reorganization they were attractive almost always.   Maybe the reverse facing Pierce being an exception.

alsancleJul 14, 2019

On 7/13/2019 at 10:32 PM, alsancle said:

These are LA based publicity photos.  This should be the car bought new by Mr. Charles W. List of Los Angeles (and Jack Dempsey was just doing PR)

John_MerenessFeb 1, 2020

These are LA based publicity photos.  This should be the car bought new by Mr. Charles W. List of Los Angeles (and Jack Dempsey was just doing PR)

Funny,  I was just this morning reading Rick Carey's auction report on the Waterhouse Victoria which he thought was a deal and I agree!

This picture is courtesy of our buddy Jason who is allowing me to post it.  Taken at I believe a CCCA Grand Classic in 1968.  Anyone recognize it?

Al Rodway was the owner then.   He would have sold it shortly after this photo was taken as he was out of the hobby by 1970.  I believe that was taken at Greenfield Village.   It's a 1928 Model G with Merrimac body.  

Talk about bolting on too much “Bling” ..................

"Talk about bolting on too much “Bling” .................."

That was Al Rodway in a nutshell.   Most of his cars were like that.   His favorite car was that tan & brown 1928 Cadillac phaeton with dual running board spotlights & Trippe Lights.   Here's the car in 1962.   It was at Hershey for sale maybe 10 years ago.   As you can see from the photo, Al liked to eat too.  

K8096Feb 1, 2020

Al Rodway was the owner then.   He would have sold it shortly after this photo was taken as he was out of the hobby by 1970.  I believe that was taken at Greenfield Village.   It's a 1928 Model G with Merrimac body.  

If you drop the whitewalls,  the tacky lalique ornament,  the trippe lights,  etc, etc, etc,  there might be a cool car under there.

alsancleFeb 1, 2020

This picture is courtesy of our buddy Jason who is allowing me to post it.  Taken at I believe a CCCA Grand Classic in 1968.  Anyone recognize it?

Wow, this is something that has not seen the light of day in a good long while.  Yes, needs "toned down" !  Factory lamps would help. 

John_MerenessFeb 2, 2020

Wow, this is something that has not seen the light of day in a good long while.  Yes, needs "toned down" !  Factory lamps would help. 

Agreed.  Wonder where it is hiding?   A Dupont Carriage house somewhere?

alsancleFeb 2, 2020

Agreed.  Wonder where it is hiding?   A Dupont Carriage house somewhere?

My guess is that it is Cleveland - lots of neat stuff still in Cleveland. 

Don’t think so.   I know just about everything prewar desirable up here.  When Rodway sold out, a lot of the cars went through Leo Gephart, who was a big time dealer in Dayton in believe.

John_MerenessFeb 2, 2020

My guess is that it is Cleveland - lots of neat stuff still in Cleveland. 

Yup, there is still one mega garage that almost no one knows about...........and a few of us waiting to get in.........we call it “the house of the obscure and unusual Classics”................we will share the location with everyone..........after we are done picking it over!

K8096Feb 2, 2020

Don’t think so.   I know just about everything prewar desirable up here.  When Rodway sold out, a lot of the cars went through Leo Gephart, who was a big time dealer in Dayton in believe.

A lot of cars went through Leo - he was in Englewood on North Dixie Drive - a northern suburb of Dayton.   A group of us rented a converted dairy barn about a mile more north ( a hub for Stearns knights, Franklin's, and 1931 Cadillac's) and regulalrly passed through his shop as a result - it was a hub on Saturday morning.  The Duesenberg's were handled by Ted Cull who was maybe two miles to the South on North Dixie Drive - also a really fun place - they ran sort of like a Duesenberg assembly line adding on passenger's side taillamps and ....

Photo courtesy of Walt Gosden - 1927 duPont convertible sedan possibly model EO15

There are next to zero photos of the E and F series Duponts.   And only photos of the dual cowl model H,  not the other 2 that were built.   99% of the photos are of the Model G.

Here are two 1927 Model years 

A 1927 Engine and Chassis 

A 1928 Engine

Here a better look at the '27 Dupont roadster.

Talk about stealth wealth. Pretty humble looking 1927 car for the price point wasn't it?

For the $2,800 the DuPont roadster list price, seems like a Pierce-Arrow 80 roadster for about $100 more would have been a better choice. Or, save a few dollars, buy a snazzy new LaSalle roadster for $2525.   A Roamer 8-88 roadster for $2,750 was about on the same scale as an assembled car. But, it didn't have the DuPont name...   

From the AACA Facebook site - Hershey Fall Meet 1965 - 1966 - 1967

John_MerenessMar 27, 2020

From the AACA Facebook site - Hershey Fall Meet 1965 - 1966 - 1967

has anybody seen this car in the last 50 years?

alsancleMar 27, 2020

has anybody seen this car in the last 50 years?

With the family buying all the cars, I’m amazed that I see one every five years now............

Notice the three DuPont's in background

Caption:  Helen West sits in a small car at the New York Auto Show in 1931. The car was the smallest that was presented at the exhibition

John_MerenessMar 28, 2020

Notice the three DuPont's in background

Any chance that is the lone surviving model H in the background?  I think maybe  yes.

When I was selling the Waterhouse victoria that Fred Guyton ultimately bought, I talked to several duPonts. None of the were at all interested and at least one of them told me that they didn't want it because it was unattractive.

pughsMar 29, 2020

When I was selling the Waterhouse victoria that Fred Guyton ultimately bought, I talked to several duPonts. None of the were at all interested and at least one of them told me that they didn't want it because it was unattractive.

I have bad taste.  I LOVE that car.

alsancleMar 28, 2020

Any chance that is the lone surviving model H in the background?  I think maybe  yes.

I am thinking that is the car in the left of photo - but why people did not take photos of it at show to have them plastered all over internet ....

AACA posted these on their Facebook site this week - late 60's and early 1970's Hershey shots

AACA posted these on their Facebook site this week - late 60's and early 1970's Hershey shots

I wonder what a Dupont two passenger speedster would bring in today's market?   The 4 passenger one brought like 800k 15 years ago.

alsancleMar 29, 2020

I wonder what a Dupont two passenger speedster would bring in today's market?   The 4 passenger one brought like 800k 15 years ago.

Just needs chrome wire wheels and the top put down to be all ready for the next round of showing it. 

John_MerenessMar 30, 2020

Just needs chrome wire wheels and the top put down to be all ready for the next round of showing it. 

I like the painted wheels.  That car doesn't need any extra help.

I wonder how much money DuPont lost on every car they built?   Quite a vanity project.

58L-Y8Mar 30, 2020

I wonder how much money DuPont lost on every car they built?   Quite a vanity project.

E Paul must have been quite the character. This little anecdote on coachbuilt.com is from a former Waterhouse Co. employee and its pretty funny. Dupont made a 1928 inspection of the Waterhouse operation to "make a preliminary inspection of the new custom-body builder."

Dunham continues his story:

“Before his arrival we all visited the barber and local shoe-shine parlor. The man we soon met for the first time looked as though he had slept in his suit and had not sat in a barber's chair for weeks! At first a little reticent, he soon warmed up and turned out to be a most democratic and likeable multimillionaire. We had been tipped off in advance that he enjoyed a good salty story. So, one of our number with a vast collection, unlimbered a few of his favorites. This, un­questionably, had something to do with making his visit more enjoyable and our "situation" more favor­able.”

“Before long we had our first order for five roadsters and five convertible coupes.”

58L-Y8Mar 30, 2020

I wonder how much money DuPont lost on every car they built?   Quite a vanity project.

I wonder if Stan Smith knows?   The problem that most regular people have no concept of is if you are fabulously rich from a previous generation,  you need something productive to occupy your time.   Sitting at the beach or drinking all day is neither satisfying nor a great idea.   DuPont started a car company and later owned Indian.  Kept him busy for a good chunk of time and we have some great cars to admire because of it.

Sounds as if E. Paul DuPont hadn't let vast wealth go to his head.  Spending considerable amounts on a vanity project just to have his name on a car was just what he must have done for fun without concern for unit profit.  Only the type of thing that could happen then.