Elcar

Saw a fellow listed an Elcar on ebay today - under Misc cars

Here's one for sale on ebay until 12/10/16. It's a Mod. 8-78.

123" w.b., $1,395 new at Elkhart, IN factory, odometer shows 18,761 mi.

Car in barn last 45 years - located S. of Fort Wayne, IN

62 HP Lycoming mod. GT straight-8

Engine Ser.#: 15789

Car Ser.#: A7K88

John_MerenessDec 5, 2016

Saw a fellow listed an Elcar on ebay today - under Misc cars

Thanks, John. You're quick. I was typing this in when you posted. I'd buy it sight unseen if it weren't for Ferengi Rules of Acquisition violations 1, 2, & 3: I don't have enough credits, can't pay the transporter, don't have a storage bay for it. 

1928 Elcar Mod. 8-91 Roadster. Photo by Douglas Wilkinson. Location(2008): Studebaker Museum, South Bend, IN.

Jeff,  I was just thinking about Elcar the other day and its connection to Mercer in 1931.   When did production actually wind down?  I have noticed that the period magazines seem to show cars in production 1-2 years after conventional wisdom said they were shut down.

I've seen a picture, after the 1931 bankruptcy, of a nice car assembled from leftover parts in 1932; and some taxis were made as late as 1933.

1927 8-90.

1930.

Looks a little like  a Ruxton who I believe was being built be Elcar in 29/30.

1930 Elcar in Jysk Automuseum, Gjern, Denmark. Photo from Flickr by perryolf taken 9/1/2007. 1930 Elcars may not register to too many viewers....but remember, one of their models was the fourth most powerful American motorcar that year.   

alsancleDec 5, 2016

Jeff,  I was just thinking about Elcar the other day and its connection to Mercer in 1931.   When did production actually wind down?  I have noticed that the period magazines seem to show cars in production 1-2 years after conventional wisdom said they were shut down.

The connection:

jeff_aDec 6, 2016

1930 Elcar in Gjern Automuseum. Photo from Flickr by perryolf taken 9/1/2007. 1930 Elcars may not register to too many viewers....but remember, one of their models was the fourth most powerful American motorcar that year.   

1. Duesenberg 270 hp.

2. Caddy V16 170 hp.

3. Pierce Arrow 125 hp?

4.  Elcar ?

My source is Karl Zahm, Special Interest Autos, Jan/Feb, 1977, pg 58, in his piece "Continental Motors: America's Auto Engine Specialist, Part II". He said: "The fourth most powerful American car in 1930 was the Elcar 140, equipped with a 140-hp, Model 12K Red Seal eight-cylinder engine." 

Interesting.   I guessed wrong on #3.  Perhaps the model U Hupmobile?

The 385 CID Pierce in 1930 was 135 hp.

I would think the Packard super 8 was close.

   Mr. Zahm doesn't lay out what the others were. The Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942 listing for Elcar says the hp increased "...culminating in a top-of-the-line 140 hp eight that was among the most puissant engines in America of the period, outpowered only by the Duesenberg and Cadillac V-16." The pennant for most horsepower shifted a lot back then. In 1929, Peerless had the Continental 12K in their Model 8-125, out-horsepowering all eight of the General Motors nameplates and the Model L Lincoln, but not Cord, Stearns-Knight, Stutz, or Duesenberg. In 1930, Auburn, Cadillac, Franklin, and Packard didn't have V-12s, and the Marmon V-16 was still on the way.

   West, thanks for the picture of the 1931 Mercer. I read that Wm. S. Locke owned it at one time.

edinmassDec 6, 2016

The 385 CID Pierce in 1930 was 135 hp.

Picking a nit, the 1930 Pierce Model A, 385 cid, was advertised at 132 hp.  (It's a very rare delight to be able to catch Ed on some nitnoy detail!)  :-)

It's not like Ed to pump up Pierce like that :).

Packard 734 was 145hp with high compression head. That probably doesn't count.

George, if I tuned it I bet I would have gotten another five to ten out of it!

Ill probably get hammered for this, buy I bet the Contentinal didn't make more than 115. Manufactures claims and assembled cars often blurred the lines on horse power. What wad the CID of the Elcar? To make 140 it needed to be BIG.

322 cubes.  See https://books.google.com/books?id=DK2AWdOlwQgC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=Continental+12K+ENGINE&source=bl&ots=gZwW0rUFnu&sig=LRsyYxww5uw8fXxt1TEYEvGCf5E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2z6zijuHQAhXHOyYKHVcTACcQ6AEISjAL#v=onepage&q=Continental 12K ENGINE&f=false

Ed, it probably would have a verifiable 140 hp if it had your re-jetting and distributor mods....

Both the Elcar 130 (1930 and 1931) and 140 (1930) were advertised at 140 hp. The 12K in the Peerless 8-125 for 1929 was listed at 114 hp. Ivan Saxton has written previously about the 322 Cu. In. Continental (which would include the 12K, 13K, and 14K) using Ricardo combustion chambers to get more power. Maybe that plays a part.

The big sedan in Post #9 is a Model 140.

With 23 posts in two days, maybe the Elcar guys ought to start a forum. I don't think any of us in this discussion actually have one. AACA Forums Member "v.milke" from Mexico does. There must be more than one.

At 322 I think 140 is a big over reach, wasn't the over head Stutz about 322 CID and wasn't claiming 140. I have worked on a K 12 and I am quite sure it isn't 140. The Peerless guys quote 115 hp for the K 12 and the two I have driven feel more like 80.  I guess the best way to describe any car from the era is adiquate or under powered, as to the very few that has excess or above average performance. In a thirties car it takes between 150 and 200 hp to notice any difference. Ed

The 322 CI SOHC Stutz of 1929-1933 was advertised at 113 hp.   I think it was a little more that that though.    What octane was the gasoline in 1930?  70?  Putting 89 octane gas in one would increase the hp today wouldn't it?   I know guys who rebuild Stutz engines now who up the compression ratio to 7:1 and get a lot more hp out of them, and that's with stock carburation.  That probably includes boring it .0030 over too.            

I will let Victor know he needs to chime in on this thread with some pictures of an Elcar.  Jeff - my apologies for going off topic but you started it :).

 I think Ed is right.  The Model J was more like 220-250 and not 270.  There were a  lot of shenanigans with those HP numbers and a company going under like Elcar would have nothing to lose.

My BB Stutz engine is full race courtesy of Ed's buddy and we should have it on the dyno next year.  We are hopping for 170hp, but that is with 4 Winfields, 7-1, ported, polished, 4 inch header, etc.

Thank you A.J. Yes, I own the remains of an Elcar... originally identical to the one in the very first post. A seven seater, model 8-81, from 1926.

I know nothing of it's history but it was down here in Mexico, together with a touring car which curiously had the inmediately prior serial number. The Touring car was destroyed and I only saw a few bits from it. Here is a pic of both cars, as found in the early 80's by Jaime Cuevas (unkown to me), who sent the picture to Bill Locke (the Elcar historian and expert who has a great book on Elcars!), who facilitated it to me... and then some other pics also taken by him at later dates. If you look closely, you can see the deterioration process thoughout the years... ;-(

The car sat there abandoned for years and was then bought by a collector who restored the engine but passed away. At this point, the remains of the body are fully deteriorated, to the point of making it non restorable (IMHO). Luckily, fenders, hood and cowl are still usable, so I will most likely make a copy of a Cantrell Suburban Woody for which I already have drawings and many pics. 

Quite frankly, I am not sure Elcar ever sold chassises to body builders, but as a medium priced car of good quality, I assume they would have, so in that sense I would not be doing a 'very' incorrect car, and it is a way of saving one of the few remaining Elcar chassis around.

I need to run now, but will later post pics of a good number of the surviving Elcars known to me.

Victor

alsancleDec 7, 2016

I will let Victor know he needs to chime in on this thread with some pictures of an Elcar.  Jeff - my apologies for going off topic but you started it :).

 I think Ed is right.  The Model J was more like 220-250 and not 270.  There were a  lot of shenanigans with those HP numbers and a company going under like Elcar would have nothing to lose.

My BB Stutz engine is full race courtesy of Ed's buddy and we should have it on the dyno next year.  We are hopping for 170hp, but that is with 4 Winfields, 7-1, ported, polished, 4 inch header, etc.

Your missing a cam!

Thank you for the photos Victor. Interesting to hear the story of your car. I remember discussing your Elcar and my Grandfather's Elcar a few years ago here on the AACA forums. His was a '26 Landau Roadster that was dark blue and turquoise...now in the Elcar Museum.

I looked on the forum search feature and see there are 9 pages of posts with the word Elcar, going back to 2001. Most of them are from people trying to sell parts and listing all the makes they fit, but a few are better. On a thread about how there are cars with funny names, one guy said Elcar is Spanish for car(?). Someone in Finland(2002) wrote in saying he has a 4-cyl. engine from an Elcar and knew the name of the Elcar importer in Tampere, Finland.

 ----Jeff Brown, Salmon, Idaho  

The compression will make a big difference, the fuel won't. If you recurv the distributor, increase compression and swept volume, and trick out the carburation a ten percent to fifteen percent increase in horsepower is doable, if the motor can hang together. Many will also go to inserts when hot rodding the motor. I haven't put inserts in my motors, but I don't have an issue with it. Ed.

Here's Glenn D. Brown's '26 Elcar 8-81 Landau Roadster about 1930 in Kansas somewhere. He traded a Travel Air biplane for it when the Elcar was near-new. Photo by my Grandfather Brown. L to R: in the leather aviator cap, my Dad, Bernard; my Aunt Geneva; and my Grandmother Brown.

Note the leather top.

Hi Jeff:

Sure I remember. Your grandfather's car is now black and silver... 

But it used to be two tone blue... and white before that!

If I recall the story correctly, but you can surely elaborate, the guy that got the plane from your grandfather in the trade crashed it that same day or within a few days... luckily your Grandfather's car is still around and as you can see it is quite a car!

Two forum users talking about Elcars they have:

1.  "hoppy172" (2012)...a 1928 Sedan in Indiana, probably the one for sale on ebay now 
2. "Tassie 1"...a 1925 8-80 Touring Car in Tasmania, Australia(formerly Peter Taylor's)

Victor and I had a discussion about the top here 7 or 8 years ago(Gen Disc., "Elcar information or parts?", 1/28/09-12/12/10) re: when Glenn D. Brown was restoring it in 1972. It was restored a second time by someone else. Here's a picture Victor sent me of the 1926 Elcar some time ago of what it looked like when at a Gilmore Car Museum show in Michigan in 2012(I recognize the Pierce-Arrow and CCCA Museums in the background): 

To add up to the discussion of Elcars...

I guess you could sum it up by saying Elcar is one of those brands to which history has played a bad joke on… too few survivors out of decent production rates. Why? No idea. They were clearly good cars, medium priced and I have read about their good engineering. Besides the powerful engine mentioned, and some important experiments with valves, Elcar had important advances in suspensions, or things like carburators in which you could adjust the mixture from the dashboard, supposedly to get a leaner mixture and use less gas once on the open road. My car has such "Swan" carburator. But my memory is not great and my mechanical knowledge almost non-existant. For anyone real interested, William (Bill) S. Locke can be called the marque's historian and has a great book on them: "Elcar and Pratt Automobiles: The Complete History"...  (no wonder he is admitted into the Automotive hall of fame, or something like that I believe it is called). In his book, Bill even lists all known survivors, down to serial number plates. Bill is a great guy. I visited him at his Florida home and learned a lot about Elcars.

He also owned many of the surviving cars that eventually got sold to another collector in Indiana, who has a private museum just outside of Elkhart, for the cars and for his pedal car collection. He is almost entirely into Elcars and has over a handful of them. I visited him and I took many pics. Very nice guy but I am reserving his name as I couldn't find him on the internet on a quick search and he might prefer to keep his privacy... but to anyone real interested, drop me a line directly and I will give you his contact information.

Anyhow... I offered to post pics of the Elcars known to me, either that I have personally seen them or that I have gotten their pics on the net or via friends. I will do so from old to new...

1916 Elcar speedster, Australia

1917 Elcar Touring Roadster E4

1917 Elcar Touring Roadster E4

1923 Elcar 6-60, 34592

1925 8-80 coupe

1925 Elcar 6-65, 37250, Sedan

1925 Elcar 6-65, 38220, Coupe

1925 Elcar 8-80, 36824, Touring Car, Tasmania

1925 Elcar 8-80, 37879, Roadster

1925 Elcar 8-80, 38772, Touring Car, Dismantled, Mexico

1926 Elcar 8-81, 38773, Seven Passenger sedan

1925 Elcar Model 8-80, 4D Brougham

1926 Elcar 6-65, Touring Car in Montevideo, Uruguay

1926 Elcar 8-81, 39511, Landau Roadster

Jeff's grandfather's car

1926 Elcar 8-81,39383, sedan

1927 Elcar 6-70, Touring car in Reikjavik, Iceland

1927 Elcar 8-90, A5A87, Deluxe Landau Cabriolet

1927 Elcar 8-90, A5Y09, Deluxe Sedan

1928 Elcar 6-70, A5T22

1928 Elcar 8-78, A7K88, Sedan, on ebay 2016

1928 Elcar 8-82, A7S05, Landau Cabriolet

1928 Elcar 8-91, A6Y23, Roadster

1929 Elcar 75, A8H11, Sedan

1930 Elcar Sedan, Bjern Auto Museum

No more Elcar survivors that I may know about...

Nice job Victor!

v.milkeDec 7, 2016

If I recall the story correctly, but you can surely elaborate, the guy that got the plane from your grandfather in the trade crashed it that same day or within a few days... luckily your Grandfather's car is still around and as you can see it is quite a car!

Victor,

   What a fantastic effort you have done making an inventory of all the Elcars known to you and organizing all of these photographs! Here are 2 more:

• There is one I found for sale on ebay November, 2006(19_ _ 6-cyl. touring car, Condition 6, in Minot, ND, radiator emblem says "Elkhart Carriage & Motor Com." above rectangular "ELCAR" motif). I noticed the hood had backward-slash louvers. Only 2 illustrations in the coachbuilt.com site match this hood design, the Elcar "Sportster", introduced in May, 1918. The ND car photos were from hotrodgarage.net, the seller.
• I saw in an ad for the Morris Blomgren Estate farm auction on 9/9/10("1918 Elcar Model D4 ser# 15645 engine", _-cyl. touring car, Condition 5, in Siren, WI). Vertical hood louvers. I sent info for both to the Elcar Museum and still have printouts of the ads. 

   While the 2 photos above are of very similar cars, they seem to be different models, model years & colors. The hood ornaments and headlights vary, too. By the way, I saw an Elcar Knight Rook radiator mascot for sale on ebay today for $849. The photo of this white car is one I have the original of. I sent a copy to the museum owner about 2010, also. It is a 1954 photo Glenn got from someone in Paris, Kentucky, maybe a car my grandpa was thinking of buying. On the back of the picture it says it's a 1927 Model 8-90 Elcar, Car Serial# A6S30, Engine Serial# 19207. No idea who the owners were.

   I never heard about the plane crash from my grand-dad, but he mentioned the plane sometimes and how well it flew. There are some stories about it crashing the day after the car and the aircraft were traded, but I don't know the details, except it was a Travel Air(Lloyd Stearman, Walter Beech and Clyde Cessna built their first one 45 miles away in Wichita during 1924). ----Jeff

>Re: the 140 HP Model 140 Elcar some of us were discussing before, I was looking at The Standard Catalog, and there may have only 3 built. I don't think that car shows around the country are going to be overwhelmed with them. The 140 HP Model 130s....I have no idea how many were made. Maybe the Elcar-Pratt book will say (I ordered one). Total Elcar production, 1930-1931, was 1,011, the Mod. 130 being one of 7 available those years. 

>The '28 Elcar Sedan in Indiana, with the straight-eight Lycoming motor, that John Mereness brought up sold for $7,085 today. Photos on Victor's Post# 56 above.

Out of the 1k odd Elcars built in 1930-31 I don't remember ever seeing a single one.

jeff_aDec 8, 2016

...

   While the 2 photos above are of very similar cars, they seem to be different models, model years & colors. The hood ornaments and headlights vary, too. By the way, I saw an Elcar Knight Rook radiator mascot for sale on ebay today for $849. The photo of this white car is one I have the original of. I sent a copy to the museum owner about 2010, also. It is a 1954 photo Glenn got from someone in Paris, Kentucky, maybe a car my grandpa was thinking of buying. On the back of the picture it says it's a 1927 Model 8-90 Elcar, Car Serial# A6S30, Engine Serial# 19207. No idea who the owners were.

   I never heard about the plane crash from my grand-dad, but he mentioned the plane sometimes and how well it flew. There are some stories about it crashing the day after the car and the aircraft were traded, but I don't know the details, except it was a Travel Air(Lloyd Stearman, Walter Beech and Clyde Cessna built their first one 45 miles away in Wichita during 1924). ----Jeff

Jeff: Sorry for my late response but I was trying to check on my info. Yes, you are right and the white and blue cars are different... I stand corrected! The blue car, your grandfather's, had incorrect headlights in the old picture and also on the color pics showing it two tone blue, and you can see on the restored pics, now black and silver, it does have now the correct headlights and emblem.... or could it be i am still confused and it is the white car now restored? Mmmmmmm.... 

Anybody interested in the marque should get the book mentioned: "Elcar and Pratt Automobiles, The complete history" by William S. Locke.

About these two cars, Bill Locke's book mentions the following stories: 

The two tone blue car... your grandfather's...

"Serial no. 39511

Elcar 8-81 - 1926 

Glenn Brown of Hutchinson, Kansas, traded his airplane for this Landau Roadster when it was almost new and kept it for 60 years. The car's original owner wrecked the plane the day of the trade. He was not seriously hurt but was unhappy about having traded his car. It is currently on display in the collection of the Reno County Historical Society in Hutchinson".

About the white one, using your numbers as stated behind the pic, the books says: 

"Serial no. A6S30

Elcar 8-90 - 1927

One of the cars that remained unsold at the Cutter Agency after World War II. This Landau was used to pay an agency debt and then was bought by the author in 1950 with 13,000 total miles registered."

So, again, my apologies but there are two different cars and I am confused now as to which is which... I will try to check with Bill Locke... he will surely be able to solve my doubts.

victor

v.milkeDec 8, 2016

No more Elcar survivors that I may know about...

Victor,

There is a youtube video of a bright red restored 7-Pass. Phaeton with wood wheels and dual sidemounts. Videos taken in 2015 and 2016 {Search "233.1  1930 Elcar Sedan"}. I think it may be a Model 75 Elcar with a Lycoming Six. Not much text, probably foreign(a sign in the back says "Museo Anthropologia"). Another video says it's the only one in Europe. Both produced by artsvalua.com.

here is the link:

There was a late twenties Elcar coupe or cabriolet in Chattanooga, TN in the early 60's.  It had the RR style radiator shell. I used to have photos but can't find them now. Any idea where it is now?

Don

It would appear the red phaeton is in Barcelona, Spain, as Artsvalua is a spanish site, and the sign "museo de antropología" is in Spanish: Anthropology museum. 

Nice car and the only "newer" Elcar I have "seen" other than the one at the Bjern Auto Museum.

But the one Elcar I would love to see, is something similar to this one...

I thought you'd like that Elcar in Spain. Are you saying you'd walk across the street to look at it, if it were in your town? Thank you for tracking down the country it's in. Was someone being inventive with the hubcaps with the big "E" on them -- or did Elcar use some like that?

I got a copy of William Locke's book on Elcar and Pratt and el coche rojo does not seem to be in it. Like many other distinctively different American makes which weren't "cars for the masses"(Gardner, Peerless, Marmon, Rickenbacker, Cole, Jordan), it would be fun to take this Elcar to a car show with the radiator badge obscured and see what peoples guesses were re: brand.

Yes, always interesting to see new and rare cars... and I found a link to the auction:

https://subastas.catawiki.es/kavels/5651965-elcar-75-a-series-phaeton-1930

Not only do we see it apparently fetched 28,000 euros, but the data of the car is shown as chassis: A8P83

The car sold half a year ago and the dollar translation is $31,827, it says on the auction link. My reading of it has it in the Canary Islands when sold, but who knows where it is now? I have read of a lot of antique car activity in the Canary Islands and Tenerife before. I see on some of your photos that the blue 1929 Model 75 Sedan has the same hubcaps with the big "E"...and the same hood sides...as the red 1930.

The January 2017 Hemmings Classic Car has a 6-page article about Elcar automobiles(also Pratt-Elkart and Pratt) with 18 photos. The excellent story by columnist Pat Foster mentioned that the high point in sales was 1919 with 4,000 cars, and that the Model 130 with 130-inch wheelbase, 4-speed transmission & 140 horsepower engine came out in 1930.

Thanks for posting that! I will look for it.

It is good to see some new interest in a rather obscure marque.

K8096Dec 7, 2016

The 322 CI SOHC Stutz of 1929-1933 was advertised at 113 hp.   I think it was a little more that that though.    What octane was the gasoline in 1930?  70?  Putting 89 octane gas in one would increase the hp today wouldn't it?   I know guys who rebuild Stutz engines now who up the compression ratio to 7:1 and get a lot more hp out of them, and that's with stock carburation.  That probably includes boring it .0030 over too.            

It's interesting to discuss the horsepower question of the cars back then. I wasn't around and haven't owned an Elcar so don't know the veracity of the h.p. claims. The one my grandfather owned had a Lycoming motor. There were three Continentals at the time that were similar, a 12K , 13K, and 14K, all 322 cu. in. eights.

• The 14 1930 Jordan Model Zs built had 114 hp using the 12K engine, according to "Z" Roadster owner Jim Stecker.
• Du Pont is listed in The Standard Catalog as having 125 hp 1929-1932 in their Model G with the 12K engine.
• Elcar Models 130 and 140......140 hp with the 12K engine was claimed for 1930 and 1931. We all would put more credence in this if, say, some Model 130s were still around.* Elcar did have some racing experience, fielding cars in both the 1926 and 1927 Indy 500, according to the Elcar and Pratt book. The Continental 12K not being in production...they used a Miller engine.
• The high-end model for Peerless in 1929 was the 8-125, using the 12K engine with 114 hp.
• Peerless stated 115 hp(Master 8) and 120 hp(custom 8), using the 13K engine in 1930-1932.
• Graham-Paige had their Model 827, 835, and 837 listed as 120 hp cars in 1929-1930 with the 14K engine. I had no idea that you could get a Le Baron Town Car with the Continental 322 for $4,180 from them, or that someone took an 835 out on the track at Brooklands and set a Class B endurance record for 200 miles, 77.77 mph, in a sedan(complete w/ sidemounts, bumpers, headlights), until I looked at The Graham Legacy by Michael Keller. Keller says the Graham-Paige had one of the larger powerplants in 1928-1929, but that it was exceeded by:

          a) Marmon "E-75" 339.7 cu. in.

          b  )Cadillac 341

          c) Lincoln 384

          d) Studebaker "Commander" 384

          e) Packard "4-43" 384.8

           f) Stearns-Knight 385

           g) Pierce-Arrow "36" 414.7

           h) Cunningham 441.7

           i) Rolls-Royce of America "PI" 468

           j) Locomobile "90" 371.5, "48" 524

          k) McFarlan 572.5

The advertised horsepower for the Continental 12K, 13K, and 14K engines was 114 to 140 in various applications. Today I found a picture of one of 'em advertising 140, and thought I would add it. I believe the Du Ponts used the Continental 12K engine.

I was able to post a photo of an ad for a 1930 Du Pont Model G, and the text "Du Pont Victoria Cabriolet -- Straight Eight Motor -- 140 Horse Power" 

* It would be interesting to know what model that 1930 Elcar in Jutland, Denmark is, at the Gjern Auto Museum.

Jeff,  all advertised HP numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.  Even the mighty Model J was said to really be around 250 and not 275 (which was still 100 more than everybody else).   The only thing I can say about DuPont is that they warmed their engines over so maybe they were getting a bit more than someone else using a Continental.

Yes, I know HP claims then and now are questionable....but I wanted this up because of the illustration. The car is quite swanky.

We should do a DuPoint thread.  There is no such thing as a bad looking Waterhouse.   If you don't have it, I suggest getting Stan Smith's book on DuPont.  Excellent.

140 is a fantasy, 322 cid with their manifold and carburation just isn't gonna happen. 110 would be on the high side in my humble opinion. Having worked on and driven several of them, I found them lackluster and wanting. They are often in very interesting and rare cars. The DuPont speedster I played with years ago really floated my boat, until I drove it. Ed

Ed,  your issue is too much time driving stuff with over 400 cubes.  I have a feeling that all the "big" 1928-1931 eights, save Duesenberg fall in to the category of "lackluster".   But at the time,  50mph was moving fast.

v.milkeDec 7, 2016

But it used to be two tone blue... and white before that!

If I recall the story correctly, but you can surely elaborate, the guy that got the plane from your grandfather in the trade crashed it that same day or within a few days... luckily your Grandfather's car is still around and as you can see it is quite a car!

I finally found a photo of my grandfather's Travel Air biplane he traded for the Elcar: (note the engine running)

edinmassJan 21, 2017

140 is a fantasy, 322 cid with their manifold and carburation just isn't gonna happen. 110 would be on the high side in my humble opinion. Having worked on and driven several of them, I found them lackluster and wanting. They are often in very interesting and rare cars. The DuPont speedster I played with years ago really floated my boat, until I drove it. Ed

Ok, I admit that I tend to try and wring out a few extra horsepower where ever possible. Nothing crazy, but minor selective adjustments can make a big difference in performance and drivability. On some cars, major adjustments can be done without effecting visual changes, that can add up to twenty percent or more power. I admit to doing this on several occasions. Every time I drive one of the "super mod" engines, it brings a smile to my face. Some motors don't offer much way of improvements due to design restraints. Most importantly, remember to drive it like you stole it!

Elcar in those years used a SWAN carburetor which could be adjusted from the dashboard, even while driving. You could make the mixture richer as needed or as lean as possible to save on fuel... interesting, isn't it ?

Jeff: Great picture of your grandfather and biplane! Thanks for sharing.

v.milkeDec 8, 2016

1927 Elcar 6-70, Touring car in Reikjavik, Iceland

This car is in a museum 154 km from Reykjavík,(Byggðasafnið í Skógum)in 1969 when i was 16 years old i help my father to paint this car for a car show for the city of Reykjavík,i just use a brush to paint the car,and still today has the same paint,my brother got the car running in 1969,But the car has not be driven since.the Iceland National museum is the owner of the car.I have pictures of it that was taken in the old days.Thank you Guðmundur Bjarnason Iceland.

Wow.   I need to visit Iceland one of these days.  How many "old" cars do you have?   And how long is "pleasant" driving season?  Circumventing Iceland seem like it might be a great Car Caravan.

New here. I have inherited a very rare 1927 ElCar model 8-82 Brougham 5-passenger sedan. 99% complete. Arizona car garage kept since 1975. Engine and Carb. was professionally rebuilt 1995. Starter rewound last year.Car was featured in William S. Locke's book and so much more history behind this car. Hoping to learn more from this group. 

Congratulations! A great and very original car! Glad you have the mechanics done already... and the radiator and headlights, apparently.

I hope you get to it and do the bodywork and rest of the work. There are only a handful of Elcars out there... and it would be great to have one more among them.

If you don't have William S. Locke's book, make sure you get it. You will find tons of information there.

Victor

Congratulations 1927, and welcome to the AACA Forums. This thread is the de facto Elcar Forum here. My grandfather had a 1926 8-81.

alsancleJan 21, 2017

We should do a DuPoint thread.  There is no such thing as a bad looking Waterhouse.   If you don't have it, I suggest getting Stan Smith's book on DuPont.  Excellent.

I have a rare of the rare photo (it may have been published when I gave it to Stan Smith for researching for CCCA publication and I told him fine for his book) and Stan was able to ID car (and it still exists today) - I would be pleased to [post if you did a DuPont thread.

This photo of a DuPont roadster (directly behind the Bugatti) was taken at an early meet in the Boston area. The older gentleman, standing in front of the car, is identified as Mr. DuPont.

I'm on the road but will get one going tonight.

K8096Dec 7, 2016

    What octane was the gasoline in 1930?  70?  Putting 89 octane gas in one would increase the hp today wouldn't it?  ....

I must disagree.   Well, to this extent.  You are correct in implying the octane of motor gasoline was MUCH lower in 1930 than it is today.   But you are incorrect in thinking using higher octane fuel in a  "bone-stock"  1930's era car would make ANY difference.

Let me explain what "OCTANE" means.  Reduced to its essentials, it is a way of discussing the FLAME SPEED of the fuel - how fast it burns.    The measurement of octane has NOTHING to do with the power of the fuel - higher octane fuel has NO more energy than lower octane fuel.   The big advantage of the higher octane fuel is that it permits higher compression.   That permits more of the SAME overall energy to be released as MECHANICAL energy, with less wasted as heat.

The higher the octane...the slower the fuel burn takes place in time...and thus more energy can be delivered to the top of the piston without the sudden & damaging "knock" of a too fast "burn off".

The earlier the fuel, the faster the flame-speed,   so that only lower compression motors could use it without damaging "knock". 

The higher the compression,  & the higher the octane fuel, the slower the flame speed, and thus the longer in time the "burn" can be converted into mechanical energy. 

Ever heard an engine "knock" ?   That's the sound of the lower octane fuel "going off" too fast. 

It is common amongst motor restorers of older vehicles to raise the compression ratio.  Why not ?  Easier on the motor;  helps it take advantage of the greater power of modern slower burning gasoline, with a smoother power flow on those old-style bearings.   So IF you are referring to 1930's cars that have had their compression ratios raised - yes...then..most certainly..use the higher octane fuel to get more power.

I became interested in the Elcar after reading the Hemmings article mentioned earlier in this thread. Of course, the real trick is finding one of these for sale. I am interested in finding one, even an unrestored project. I'm in New Jersey. These are such fascinating and (sadly) largely ignored pieces of automobile history. 

I hope you find one, Cars of Chaos {good name for wheels from the Roaring Twenties}. 5 or 10 years ago, I saw a couple of rickity early Elcars come up for sale in farm auctions(ND, MN). I´ll tell you if I see another.

No matter what car show you went to with your Elcar, nobody would ever stick you in `` the Elcar row´´.  Not just Rare, Unique.

Hey 1927 8-82 Brougham,

Is that yours now up for sale here:

https://www.collectorcarnation.com/Other/182969628/1927-ELCAR-LUXURY-SEDAN-READY-TO-BE-RODDED.html?page=2&offset=11&from=ads_by_day#5

That would be a good buy... a great car, as we saw in the pictures above!

For eight grand, it’s worth buying just to say you owned a CCCA Classic Elcar. If the car were on the east coast I would probably consider it. Sadly, at that price, a street rod would certainly consider it as an option. Rare and unusual doesn’t mean expensive. 

edinmassNov 30, 2017

For eight grand, it’s worth buying just to say you owned a CCCA Classic Elcar. If the car were on the east coast I would probably consider it. Sadly, at that price, a street rod would certainly consider it as an option. Rare and unusual doesn’t mean expensive. 

Ed, I agree, the car needs a ton of work, but a running Classic for 8K is fun!  It's a shame the fellow who inherited it has no interest, but that's the way it goes.....

As far as making a hot rod out of it, if I were of that ilk I'd surely look for something with a little more styling to rod.....

edinmassNov 30, 2017

For eight grand, it’s worth buying just to say you owned a CCCA Classic Elcar. If the car were on the east coast I would probably consider it. Sadly, at that price, a street rod would certainly consider it as an option. Rare and unusual doesn’t mean expensive. 

I agree with you completely, Ed. 

What happened to that old chesnut: ``Nobody but millionaires can afford to buy CCCA Classics.´´?

cars of chaosOct 19, 2017

I became interested in the Elcar after reading the Hemmings article mentioned earlier in this thread. Of course, the real trick is finding one of these for sale. I am interested in finding one, even an unrestored project. I'm in New Jersey. These are such fascinating and (sadly) largely ignored pieces of automobile history. 

There will be an auction in Ohio this August with 2 Elcars. The Lloyd Young estate sale, held by Mike Clum Auctions(www.clumauctions.com). AUG 10th &11th 2018, near Columbus.

An outstanding set of cars, catalog not out til May[also Buick, MG Midget, REO, Cadillac, Ford, Pierce-Arrow, Peerless, Packard, Templar, Baker, Franklin, Marmon]. Looks like a Coupe and a Sedan, nice condition, 1924 and 1926, based on the preliminary photos.

I never met Mr. Young... but I have a note that it is a 1926 Elcar Model 6-65 Coupe, serial no. 38220. Nice car. I hope it ends in good hands.

I got to meet Lloyd once, but didn't know they had Elcars, too. Thanks for posting the photo: looks like a new car! Did you see the '22 Elcar some one has for sale on the Car For Sale Forum(last post 4/22/18)?

No, I had not seen the '22 K6 coupe for sale (I have to admit that I rarely get into the forums)... nice little car. God knows why he sent me to Mexico... otherwise I would have a much larger collection! I would certainly get that car for the price mentioned.... but not possible from down here as importing a car legally is tremendously expensive these days.

One more car for my Elcar picture collection. Thanks for pointing it out.

The pictures of the '22 Elcar are deceptive, I think. My guess is that the coupe is pretty big, height-wise. I know someone went to a lot of trouble to pose with "The Tramp" Charlie Chaplin impersonator, but it takes away from the kind of car it is, along with the faded paint.  From a long ways away it looks like just another Model "T" or Dodge but it was a higher grade car...I think you'll agree. We are(maybe wrong word since I've never owned one) getting enough discussion about Elcar, maybe there ought to be an Elcar Forum now.

jeff_aApr 26, 2018

I know someone wth "The Tramp" Charlie Chaplin impersonator, but it takes away from the kind of car it is, along with the faded paint. 

You read my  mind Jeff.

Jeff: I think an Elcar forum would not get much movement. It is only a handful of interested guys with a bit more than a handful of surviving cars... and yes!, the car seems rather tall and large.

I am posting a pic of the coupe for sale, since these thread has been also working as an "Elcar inventory".

1922 K6 serial 3563

 For future reference and researchers of Elcars The 1928 Elcar 8-78, A7K88, Sedan, on ebay 2016 sold for $7600 and was shipped overseas (not sure where) for restoration. I purchased and now own A5R89 a 1927 8-82 5 pass sedan. I am always interested in parts or even another Elcar for restoration if anyone has any in the future. Wouldn't mind connecting with other Elcar owners also. Jonathan

v.milkeApr 26, 2018

No, I had not seen the '22 K6 coupe for sale (I have to admit that I rarely get into the forums)... nice little car. God knows why he sent me to Mexico... otherwise I would have a much larger collection! I would certainly get that car for the price mentioned.... but not possible from down here as importing a car legally is tremendously expensive these days.

One more car for my Elcar picture collection. Thanks for pointing it out.

What if someone had a 30m yacht in Los Angeles and took this car with him to a car show in Cabo San Lucas or Agua Caliénte. He drives it around a little after the car show and a hotel owner buys it to display in his lobby as a static display, not to drive. Then you happen along awhile later and buy it from him, maybe paying a 10% sales tax. Would any laws be broken, or would there be a 200% import tax on this used car, like my teacher said was assessed on him bringing a new refrigerator and washing machine to a Mexican friend in 1975?

Jonathan WinansMay 21, 2018

 For future reference and researchers of Elcars The 1928 Elcar 8-78, A7K88, Sedan, on ebay 2016 sold for $7600 and was shipped overseas (not sure where) for restoration. I purchased and now own A5R89 a 1927 8-82 5 pass sedan. I am always interested in parts or even another Elcar for restoration if anyone has any in the future. Wouldn't mind connecting with other Elcar owners also. Jonathan

Jonathan, congratulations on your purchase. A5R89 looks like a very complete car.

I have a 1926 project which I am not sure if I will ever get to do, but in the process of learning about it I saw several Elcars and looked for information everywhere. I collect pics of whatever Elcar I come across. If you need any pics on details for your car, please feel free to contact me directly: vmilke at nutryplus dot com.

Thanks,

Victor

jeff_aMay 23, 2018

What if someone had a 30m yacht in Los Angeles and took this car with him to a car show in Cabo San Lucas or Agua Caliénte. He drives it around a little after the car show and a hotel owner buys it to display in his lobby as a static display, not to drive. Then you happen along awhile later and buy it from him, maybe paying a 10% sales tax. Would any laws be broken, or would there be a 200% import tax on this used car, like my teacher said was assessed on him bringing a new refrigerator and washing machine to a Mexican friend in 1975?

Jeff, I really wouldn't know. Many things do not work well around here... and of course there might be a way around a few of them if you care to find it, but I am respectful of the law and would not like to get into anything other than the standard procedure.

I have a car that I bought down here that may not be fully 'correct' and I get a kind of a headache every time I remember about it, knowing that if sometime for any reason my car could get checked (not likely to happen, perhaps only in case of a big accident or something similar) I may loose it for not being legal.

Better stay on the correct side of the line.

v

I'm not suggesting that anyone should dodge taxes or import laws. I read, recently, about some super-rich guy who had a motor yacht so big he and his wife carried a Fiat 500 or something aboard so they could drive around at different ports they visited. I was just posing a theoretical case & wondering how our countrys' myriad laws would apply. It's possible a police chief or port inspector would say the above situation would not be allowed -- but with a proper explanation beforehand, maybe they would understand that smuggling on the high seas was not the intent. To me, it would be the same as the owner of the 100-foot yacht going to a marina in Mexico and selling an $8,000 painting to a hotel owner if the hotelier insisted on buying it, then you buying it a year later when you saw it in the lobby. Maybe the hotel man would have to pay an import duty. I'm not an attorney or a customs officer so admit to being ignorant on the subject...but informing the officials beforehand may work better than trying it to find out if it was legal.

I am also an ignorant on the subject, Jeff. It is a good idea... but who knows if it can be done or not and what would happen...

Back to Elcars, I am posting a pic of what is a very rare and valuable option... a Pegasus hood ornament that I once saw on ebay (it was Elcar's emblem as can be seen in the radiator badge),

Could this be an unknown Elcar?? Owner has no idea. The B&W photo is a known Elcar made Taxi.

I came across this brochure if anyone can use it.

NOT MINE

A 1928 Elcar Model 8-91 will be for sale at the RM Sothebys Elkhart Auction Oct. 23-24, 2020.

Looks very good. Body Style: Roadster Engine: Lycoming straight-eight Estimate: $60-80,000

I noticed today there is a 1931 Model 120 Elcar Sedan listed on Hemmings online. The Elcar book says a $2,645 car new. 115 hp Lycoming staight-eight engine. Location: New Hampshire. Condition: "Fair" They are asking $25,000, negotiable.

Glad you directed me to Hemmings, Jeff, as there is another Elcar listed that I did not know of. It appears as 1925 Elcar Model 8-81 5 passenger Deluxe Sedan, and VIN as 1363439415Z, which seems rather off to what I have seen before.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/elcar/unspecified/2434808.html

Beautiful car. I hope if finds a good home... perhaps any one here?

I had never seen that one until today. Or an Elcar with wire wheels. Not used to seeing 3 at one time on Hemmings(this 1925 8-81 Sedan/the 86 h.p. 1928 Roadster/the 115 h.p 1931 Sedan).

V.MilkeOct 6, 2020

Glad you directed me to Hemmings, Jeff, as there is another Elcar listed that I did not know of. It appears as 1925 Elcar Model 8-81 5 passenger Deluxe Sedan, and VIN as 1363439415Z, which seems rather off to what I have seen before.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/elcar/unspecified/2434808.html

Beautiful car. I hope if finds a good home... perhaps any one here?

I would say GREAT CAR - decent looking with great wire wheels, sidemounts, bumpers, and ... - super nice condition too !!!

Could this one be an Elcar? It was posted elsewhere as being a Studebaker President but is not.

There are similarities in the body details to the green and white car auctioned recently but there are other details that don't match.

Mystery roadster - What is it? - Antique Automobile Club of America - Discussion Forums (aaca.org)

jeff_aJan 30, 2017

I finally found a photo of my grandfather's Travel Air biplane he traded for the Elcar: (note the engine running)

Jeff,

Some things are stranger than true. I just found this 1928 Elcar ad in the December 11, 1927 issue of Bohemia, a well known Cuban magazine. 

It's unusual to see artwork of the steps of the Universidad de La Habana, an immensely popular tourist stop, then and now,

that just happens to be right outside the door of the casa particular where I stay during my frequent trips.

Crazy that a Travel Air monoplane is included in the illustration of a car rarely advertised there - "El Aeroplano de la Tierra" (The Airplane of the Earth).

TG

That's fantastic information, TG! If I'm not mistaken, Elcar had a model with a name similar to TravelAir.

My Grandfather Brown had a 1926 Elcar cabriolet, straight eight, from about 1927 to 1990. I am on my way back home from a funeral in Kansas and retraced much of the route he took the whole family on about 1929: Hutchinson, Kansas -> Wolf Creek Pass, CO -> Mesa Verde Nat'l Park, CO -> Hutchinson.  It's about 640 miles one way to Mesa Verde.

jeff_aSep 20, 2022

That's fantastic information, TG! If I'm not mistaken, Elcar had a model with a name similar to TravelAir.

My Grandfather Brown had a 1926 Elcar cabriolet, straight eight, from about 1927 to 1990. I am on my way back home from a funeral in Kansas and retraced much of the route he took the whole family on about 1929: Hutchinson, Kansas -> Wolf Creek Pass, CO -> Mesa Verde Nat'l Park, CO -> Hutchinson.  It's about 640 miles one way to Mesa Verde.

Where is your family car today??  Why after all those years was it sold?? Can it be bought back?? Please post a picture of it. Mike 

Glenn Brown died, his cars were auctioned by a small-time local firm in 1990 or 1991, the '26 Elcar went for about $5,000. I was there. The car changed hands and wound up at the Elcar Museum in IN. It got a second repaint (to silver & black). Was displayed at a meet at the Gilmore Car Museum 10 years ago

jeff_aDec 11, 2022

Glenn Brown died, his cars were auctioned by a small-time local firm in 1990 or 1991, the '26 Elcar went for about $5,000. I was there. The car changed hands and wound up at the Elcar Museum in IN. It got a second repaint(maroon & silver, I think). Was displayed at a meet at the Gilmore Car Museum about 12 years ago

I'm bemused by my reaction. Rationally, I am glad that this car wound up at the Elcar Museum. Emotionally, I wish it were in the hands of a family that loves it and drives it. Elcars are magnificent.

Mike West ...

Thank you for your interest in Elcars. I've enclosed a picture of my Grandfather's 1926 Elcar in the Indiana museum (Turquoise and Blue), plus a 2012 photo of it with the CCCA Museum in the background.

His estate's cars didn't go to the grandkids: everything was sold in 5 auctions, but I could bid on anything with a 50% family discount. I didn't have 1/2 of the sale price at the time, or I would have bid. Some guy bought it, then it went to the county museum, then to the place in IN.

ALL THE SAME CAR:

....About 1930...Kansas...during the 7 decades our family owned it

...........about 1995...Indiana

...........2012...Michigan...Gilmore Car Museum event

The first picture was taken my my Grandfather. On the car are my Father, Bernard, my Aunt Geneva; and standing is my Grandmother, Lorena.

Mentioned earlier in this CCCA-Elcar Thread was a trip from Hutchinson, KS to Mesa Verde, CO{675 miles} and back in the Elcar. The kids rode in the rumble seat the whole way, but had a little tent-like thing going back from the cabriolet top to shield them from (most of) the rain and sun. I'm sure it was a bit breezy. Camping out on the odyssey, they used a lean-to tent that came out from the  side of the car just big enough for four to sleep in.

jeff_aDec 16, 2022

The first picture was taken my my Grandfather. On the Car are my Father, Bernard, my Aunt Geneva; and standing is my Grandmother, Lorena.

Mentioned earlier in this CCCA-Elcar Thread was a trip from Hutchinson, KS to Mesa Verde, CO{675 miles} and back in the Elcar. The kids rode in the rumble seat the whole way, but had a little tent-like thing going back from the cabriolet top to shield them from (most of) the rain and sun. I'm sure it was a bit breezy. Camping out on the odyssey, they used a lean-to tent that came out from the  side of the car just big enough for four of them.

Jeff, 

I'm sure many jobbers offered rumble seat canopies similar to this, from the 1930 catalog of the Clifton Manufacturing Co. of Waco, TX.

Yours for the Elcar may have even been homemade.

Like the copy says - Nifty!

TG

I thought the Elcar File needed more info -- so here's an ad for 1929:

V.MilkeDec 8, 2016

1925 Elcar 8-80, 38772, Touring Car, Dismantled, Mexico      great potential. i wonder where they might have ended up. thanks for posting.

The blue 7 passenger sedan is my car, one of my projects... in much worse condition now that in that very old picture. The touring car next to it I understand was dismantled. I only saw the windshield frame out of that car. I guess the rest ended in the crusher. The pic was taken around 1984.

As for my long wheelbase sedan, it will be restored as a Cantrel Suburban replica body, as there is no possible way to replicate the original body at any reasonable cost. Anyhow, that is the idea... some day....

Victor