Pierce Arrow

I actually spoke to Joe about that car two or three weeks ago. The engine is stuck, but he seems committed to getting it up and running so I referred him to a shop that has familiarity with something of that magnitude. I'd wager that it's a fairly valuable car when restored, but given how solid it looks, perhaps simply cleaning it up and getting it running would be a better choice. I haven't seen it in person so I can't say, but Joe isn't a rookie at this. It's an exciting find and I'm sure it'll be back in circulation before too long. Nice to see a photo, I didn't know what he had other than a "32 V12" Pierce.

Nope, not a rookie.  If I were him I would send it to Indian Orchard Mass to get the mechanics straightened out.

It's a great car. Much better looking in person than the photos imply. Interesting story on the car, but I will let Mr. Bortz tell his portion first when he is ready. It's a top twenty Pierce Arrow as far as I am concerned. With the alminimum custom body and the V-12 motor it puts in into a very, very rare catagory of a Pierce Arrow custom car. Here is another shot of it. Better angle showing the lines, 142 inch wheel base. Free wheeling and adjustable ride suspension. Padded leather top as was normal for most Pierce coupes of 1932 & 1933. More to come later if Joe decides to post his story, as I don't want to rain on anyone's fun. Ed.

Another interesting car, FDR and all the presidents had Pierce Arrows as official White House cars, usually five to seven cars each year. Here are some interesting photos.

Ed, is that a 36 or 37?  I like the low slope of the windshield.  Also, is hood standard length?  looks long.

I could have bought this a few years ago for not a ton of money.  Minus the engine and a bit more worn than this picture.  It was in Harrah's at one point.

I blame Ed for not talking me in to it.  This is the club sedan version of the catalog custom coupe above.  On a 31 model 41 chassis.  This particular car was the only Berline.

The FDR car is a 1936 V12 series 1603 total factory special. One off. They built two others which were factory custom parade touring cars, one is still around, last seen in South America. It you bought all the car I told you about you would be single and living in your garage. I'm sure you have a Pierce in your future! Here is another photo. 

Is that a roll up window in the divider ala a tourster?

The living in the garage wouldn't be so bad but I'm sure I wouldn't get to keep any cars.

This photo postcard advertising the subject car for sale was sent to my dad in October 1984.  Perhaps Ed can tell us where this car is today.   

It's in Michigan, suffered a minor under hood fire. No body damage, just hood. Can be purchased when I spoke to the owners six months ago.

 How was that, an answer in less than two minutes!

Slow. You are losing your fastball.

No window AJ, those are hand holds for the OSS men. 

Any time you want to play where is it hiding, I'm game. I can think of four world class cars I know of, possibly five, and three are way off the radar, the other two are on a very short list of car hunters, all of which have no money!

Come on Jason, any other PA shots for me?

Photo taken in the Cleveland/Akron area in the early 70's at a CCCA regional event   Color of the car should make it easy to identify if it hasn't been repainted.  

Identify year & model please.    This is the last one for tonight.   

I'll throw down the gauntlet, ID the car, body builder, year, chassis, owner when it was new, and cars current location. It has 2200 miles on it. No help from the PA guys!

That towncar was the one sold new to the Shah of Iran was it not?   Originally painted white with a crest on the door.   It's currently in the Iran auto museum.   They also have a 540K Mercedes autobahn car painted green.      

Photo is blurry, 1928 series 81 if I am not mistaken. Only other choice is a 25-27 series 80 as they were all the same, it's not a series 33 or 36, too small.

Current location, I have no clue, but it's a six, and I only keep tabs on the eights and twelves. They but a large number of the small series by PA standards. There are quite a few still with us.

Correct! Brunn body, that gold hardware, solid gold door handles inside, $30,000 new. Original color was white exterior with a champagne interior. I bought the lap robe from this car from Herman Brunn's daughter in the 1980's. It has the Reza Sha Pavalli's crest on it. Car is in a museum in Iran. 

What's my prize?  How about a free Gemmer steering gear rebuild?  

Nice original 8 cylinder sedan owned by a well known local collector.    

No longer in Ohio, now in the DC area, it was in NJ for fifty years. Owned by a good friend of mine, we are on the board of directors of The Pierce Arrow Foundation Museum at the Gilmore Campus.

I have never understood how they got the price of that car up to 30k other than filling the gas tank with gold.   Ugly.  No wonder the Iranian's hate us.  We were sticking it to them 80 years ago.

Blah.  Reminds me of a high hat Rollson.

A better looking Brunn Pierce on the same chassis I think.  Ed, did this survive?

The identical body was put on a Sterns Knight and that did survive.

I need to start a Stern's thread.   But here is the same body on a Stern's-Knight.

The Brunn is NOT ugly. I would own it. Can you notice what is unique about that particular car? It's very unusual, and you can see it in all the photos. Also, there is an accessory that is very large and expensive, but is not shown in the photo, related to what is unique about this car I have never seen on ANY other CCCA Classic.

The other Brunn is not known to any PA guys, so my best guess is it didn't make it to today.

edinmassOct 15, 2016

The Brunn is NOT ugly. I would own it. Can you notice what is unique about that particular car? It's very unusual, and you can see it in all the photos. Also, there is an accessory that is very large and expensive, but is not shown in the photo, related to what is unique about this car I have never seen on ANY other CCCA Classic.

The three foot tall windshield?

No.......where did they carry the spare? A beer on me at Hotel Hershey next year for the first person so correctly explains how they carried the spare tire.........details please!  Yes, I know how they did it.

I'm gonna guess behind the driver's seat. 

No........not behind the drivers seat. Think BIG, people with unlimited money.

There was a chase car with the tire.

Thanks for the clue , Ed ! Well , the people I know of who have UNLIMITED money have little "tenders". Some of their fleet are so large that they can not put in to any number of delightful places , e.g. : Marbella , Spain. Hey , if you are for real , you gotta be doing the Marbella thing. Right ? So you have a little "tender" to shadow , like maybe your 456 footer like Larry has , or perhaps like Paul's 416' or 301'. I don't think either of these can be accommodated by the "stern to" facilities at Marbella. Much less the 500'+ yachts which are starting to appear , separating , as it were , the paddlers from the piddlers. Paul has a micro yacht which I guess could be deployed as a tender. It is up in the 200s. The "tenders" I know of are in the 250' - 275' range , like the "Golden Shadow" , built by some folks I know in one of their shipyards in Chile. Shallower in draft , access is allowed to small ports and coves , and many of the "toys" are transported aboard the "tenders". This being the way the "Gigabux" crowd I am familiar with roll , my guess is "tender". Must I pick a make ? One guess ("C" standing for Cadillac) , would be Cadillac. They had a good reputation for reliability across the Middle East. We all know the stories of the 1924 Cads running between Beirut , Damascus and Baghdad. Occasionally they were called upon to continue on to Tehran. Perhaps their legendary feats gained the attention of the Peacock Throne. Here's to your health , Ed ! (My fleet consists of some very good canoes. A highly deteriorated former paddler , I think it is time to flog 'em for gas money) -  C Carl

YES!!!!!!! There was a chase car. And as the Sha had very good taste .......... he had another Pierce Arrow. A Series 133 Dual Cowl Phaeton. I have a hard copy photo of it somewhere. They followed up the Pierce Arrows with a bunch of Buicks, most were cut into trucks, or built that way, I am not sure. When you look at power to weight ratio, it was very difficult to beat a Buick. Maybe they ran cooler in the dessert than other cars? It would be interesting to hear from someone who has run 20's and 30's cars in the Middle East.

Another Pierce photo.....

And another.......

The photo of that travel trailer woke up some old memories. At one time "JB" would drive around in his Pierce, towing a Pierce trailer.  Brought it to our Grand Classic in Santa Barbara one year.  Would not be surprised if it is still in the Nethercutt Museum (Sylmar, Calif. )

The pictured Travelodge is a Model A (19 foot can, identified by two roof vents) but has a tri-tone paint job and what appear to be 1936 Buick fender mounted parking lights as front running lights (not from the Pierce factory).  I had a one-hour conversation about ten years ago with the gent who found that photo among his late mother's effects. The photo was taken in Litchfield, IL, where the tall chimney still stood at the time of our conversation. His mother was one of the young women in the photo.

The Nethercutt Model A is similar but is not stock.  I crawled over and under it ten years ago with the permission of the then-curator. The Nethercutt Model A has a dropped Pierce front axle (about a 6-inch drop), presumably so they could fit Pierce auto wheels and hubcaps; accordingly, that trailer stands 6-8" taller than a stock Travelodge.  The Nethercutt trailer also has  a period Servel refrigerator and a darker, glossier (lacquer?) interior wood finish than stock which photographs beautifully but becomes oppressive after one has spent five minutes in the trailer. Stock Travelodges had independent suspension with NO axle--tubular leading arm and a 1/4-elliptic spring as a traling arm, making them tow beautifully without lurching, even over diagonal railroad tracks.

Oh, showing Pierce ice boxes, too?  Here's mine, smaller than Ed's but I like it, took delivery at Hershey! Dates to 1880-90, before George N. Pierce started making bicycles.

I will play along. I have three Pierce Arrows. A 1915 model 38 Town car, a 1931 Pierce arrow Model 43 Dual windshield and a 1933 1242 Convertible Coupe.

Nice, but I'm blinded by all the whitewalls.  Have you been able to drive the 1242 very much?

I have driven the 1242 a lot this summer. the 1931 i drove last summer and the 1915 I haven't had out yet.

Can't change tires on everything. as it is my universal tire bill is hefty.

I hear you.  At 200/tire plus it adds up quick with dual sidemounts.   Give us some driving impressions for the three cars. 

Ed,  is Kirk's 1242 basically the same as the salt flats car?

The 1932 car was a true Roadster, no windows. The 1933 car is the same, see the photos, the windows are clear. Notice the signature  of the driver on the door. Maybe we ca get Kirk to cut down his car like the Salt Flats car, and then he can put black walls on it. I'll kick in for the speed parts, as I have them on the shelf. Photo enclosed.

K8096Oct 15, 2016

This photo postcard advertising the subject car for sale was sent to my dad in October 1984.  Perhaps Ed can tell us where this car is today.   

I think I've seen other postcard views of antique cars in front of this building. Is it Case Western Reserve, or the Crawford Museum?

Since this new thread has pictures of Pierce ice boxes from the Victorian Era, I can't resist asking about another early product. How many 1-cylinder De Dion Bouton-engined Pierces are still around? I've seen one Pierce Motorette in the Pierce-Arrow Museum at Gilmore, and have seen photos of a couple more in the London-To-Brighton Run. Only one Peerless 1-cylinder Motorette has made it to recent times, last seen at Hershey about 1958. Thank you.

Rats, when you said "Victorian Era" I thought you were going to ask about bird cages.  Geo. N. Pierce made bird cages early on, and while apparently no cage has his name on it, the glass food and water feeders did.  The ones in my Pierce memorabilia collection are dated 1874, cast in the glass along with his name.

Right now, there is 1 Motorette and there are 9 Stanhopes listed in the Pierce Arrow Society roster.

The Motorette of 1901-02 had the Dedion-Bouton engine.

The Stanhope of 1903-04 had a Pierce manufactured engine, although from pictures I've seen, while not identical, it appears to be a copy of the DeDion-Bouton design.  I've not studied them closely, and perhaps someone more familiar with them could clarify that.

There's a Stanhope in the Rhinebeck Aerodrome museum, I don't believe it's in the roster.  The car in the Pierce Arrow museum at Gilmore is a 1903 Stanhope.

Thanks, I didn't know the difference between the Motorettes and Stanhopes before.

The 31 Catalog Customs were awesome.  We have two pictured already,  this is a third body style.  It just sold at Hershey.  Back at Pebble they had the Waterhouse and this car lined up back to back and they are pretty close to the same.

And for comparisons sake the Waterhouse.   Ed,  can you tell the story on this one.  I'm sure you knew about it when it was in the chicken coop.

OK Ed, here we go.   Taken at the Ursuline College Concours on the Eastside of Cleveland circa 1986.    In the 1980's, a lot of people painted cars maroon/green/blue and silver.   Thankfully that fad has passed.   

Jason, that 1933 convertible sedan photo is thirty years old, and not very clear. They built 60 of those bodies for the 1931-1933 years. Quite a few have survived, when that photo was taken I was a Cadillac guy, and would remain so for another ten years. I don't recall seeing that car in person, but it looks familiar so I probably have seen a photo of it somewhere.        After two minutes research I can confirm I have seen photos of it in the past, and the car is now  in a large collection in California. I spoke to the collection manager on the phone Monday last week. I will be stopping in to see the collection just before Pebble next year. Maybe I will get a chance to finally see it in person then.  Here is a interesting photo for you. I found this recently, and the Marque experts had not seen it before from what I have been told. Notice the white steering wheel. I have never seen one on a car of this vintage before.

I assume Randy knows which Derham Tourister it is though, right?    It looks like the running boards are lighter in color as well. 

I didn't run it by Randy, as I don't have his email address. If you have it, please pm it to me.

edinmassOct 21, 2016

Jason, that 1933 convertible sedan photo is thirty years old, and not very clear. They built 60 of those bodies for the 1931-1933 years. Quite a few have survived, when that photo was taken I was a Cadillac guy, and would remain so for another ten years. I don't recall seeing that car in person, but it looks familiar so I probably have seen a photo of it somewhere.        After two minutes research I can confirm I have seen photos of it in the past, and the car is now  in a large collection in California. I spoke to the collection manager on the phone Monday last week. I will be stopping in to see the collection just before Pebble next year. Maybe I will get a chance to finally see it in person then.  Here is a interesting photo for you. I found this recently, and the Marque experts had not seen it before from what I have been told. Notice the white steering wheel. I have never seen one on a car of this vintage before.

Cool Duesenberg photo

edinmassOct 21, 2016

I didn't run it by Randy, as I don't have his email address. If you have it, please pm it to me.

It is also on page 49 of Olympian Cars.

Hey Ed,  I assume you know where this one is too.   1935 club sedan used in the 1973 movie The Sting.   

Yes, I know the car. Just recently sold after spending many years in the same garage. I think there are five of them. I owned an identical example and sold it when I built my house. Photo enclosed. 

From Parker's Packard's open house last Sunday.

Just curious - anyone know what happened to the late Tom Spark's club sedan (was seen in a number of movies...!)

alsancleOct 14, 2016

Here is a 32 LeBaron V12 Catalog custom barn find that Joe Bortz found recently.  It was pictured in the last Pierce club magazine.  I believe identical to the 31 bodies and one of maybe 5 built and 1 or 2 installed on the 32 12 chassis.  Since it is the short wheelbase I believe it is the 150hp smaller 12.

This month's Pierce Arrow Club magazine has a great article on this car.  You will need to spend 400k plus to restore it but I could see a Pebble Class trophy in the future.

Did this one survive?

Not that I know of, any background info on it?

Weymann Fabric body so it was sort of a rhetorical question.   To my knowledge there are about 12 surviving Weymann's on any chassis.

Chassis is 1929, I can tell from the early style hub cap. I have never seen these photos before, and ran them by my secret 100 year old PA mentor. He said they were cut up,about 65 years ago in the Buffalo area. Ed

What a shame

A Waterhouse roadster.

I posted this in a thread on the Buy/Sell forum. Perhaps it will be of interest to some here. Apologies to those who have already seen it.

My dad bought a 1933 Model 836 for $300 in Boston in 1960 and we drove it back to Rochester NY the same day (drove out Friday night, bought it Saturday morning and drove it back - made for a long day). When we went to put the new plates on the car we discovered why the owner wasn't concerned with their return - they were cardboard ! Pix is after a respray - the interior was in nice shape.

$300 bought a lot of car in 1960..

So how long did it stay in the family?  I'm sure Ed knows where it is now.

Sometime in the late 60's. I was in college and my parents were getting divorced so I really am not sure of the exact year or how it was sold. I don't know whether he sold it to a local GVAC's member or if Bernie Weis helped locate a buyer.

I have an old registration and other information around somewhere although it might take a day or two to locate it.  It would be nice to know that it was well taken care of....he missed it in his old age, one of the few things he was sentimental about.

Finally found the information on my dad's Pierce-Arrow. Would certainly like to know if someone knows where it is - I don't have to know where - just that it's in good hands. It was a beautiful car..... information from a 1960 Massachusetts registration.

VIN               236S2276

Engine          1070440

Thanks

1070440 is actually the serial number of your car.  It's not listed in the 2017 Pierce Arrow Society roster, although I'm sure it sleeps happily in a good garage somewhere, or at least let's hope!

The "VIN" number you give is similar to an engine number, but too many digits, it should be six digits with no letters, and be 235XXX or 236XXX.  According to the serial number, the engine should be in the 235XXX range, so it's possible it had a replacement engine.

We'll see if anyone else has any other information....

David (trimacar) is correct that 1070440 is the "VIN" (actually, "serial number") of the car.  The 236S2276 is a body number:  2 is the engineering code for most 1933-35 8-cyl cars, 36 indicates 136" wheelbase, S = 5-p sedan, the first 2 (actually the body code would read 236-S2-246 on the tag) means "Salon" (deluxe) trim (s-1 means standard trim), and 246 is the sequential number among 5-p 8-cyl sedans (both standard and Salon) for 1933.

A *2005* master register of vehicles ever known to the Pierce-Arrow Society reflects the last owner being located in Toronto in the time frame 1997 and later.  In the comments section, "c. 1993 car restored as a 'rod' (mag wheels, etc)."  [What a shame!  A beautiful original car in your photos.]

The actual engine number recorded with PAS for this car was 236522.

Each year's PAS roster includes only those vehicles claimed by current members for that year.  Some owners choose not to list their cars at all.  Generally, only about half of the Pierce vehicles known to the PAS are listed in any given year's roster.

For 1930-38 Pierce autos, serial (chassis) numbers are seven numerals, engine numbers are six numerals. 1929-only engine numbers begin with A- but the serial is seven numerals like other years.

Greatly appreciate the information.  Ouch on the mag wheels, etc. Today we would not have painted the body - only the fenders (right front needed leading behind the headlight). But the body was absolutely beautiful. The rounded corners were just starting to rub through to the primer and there were traces of the original pin striping.  -0- rust car except for the one fender. Right rear fender had been filled a bit due to a crease. But lacquer was cheap and spraying was cheap ($75) - we did the rub out.

No wonder it is so hard to get the numbers straight on the older vehicles when they have to check the VIN - see copy of the Massachusetts registration.

Glad David and I could help a bit. We can only hope that the "rodding" was limited to mag wheels.

BTW, the first two digits of each 1929-38 engine and serial (chassis) number identify the year, cubic inch displacement, and wheelbase.  This is a bit of an oversimplification, but it's easy to sort out if there's a different year engine installed.

Ah, I forgot about the body number, thanks G......yes, shame if it's rodded, hate to see any Full Classic so treated, and Pierce is dear to my heart so bothers me even more....

vermontboySep 5, 2017

Greatly appreciate the information.  Ouch on the mag wheels, etc. Today we would not have painted the body - only the fenders (right front needed leading behind the headlight). But the body was absolutely beautiful. The rounded corners were just starting to rub through to the primer and there were traces of the original pin striping.  -0- rust car except for the one fender. Right rear fender had been filled a bit due to a crease. But lacquer was cheap and spraying was cheap ($75) - we did the rub out.

No wonder it is so hard to get the numbers straight on the older vehicles when they have to check the VIN - see copy of the Massachusetts registration.

I am fairly certain I know the car, and it’s current configuration. If it’s the car I am thinking of it wasn’t limited to just a wheel change. The car was Chevrolet powered, etc. 

Thanks Ed - that's the impression I got. When I get serious in a couple of years I won't start my search looking for it..... too bad, unless something catastrophic occurred it should have still been a nice driver quality Pierce. 1933 was a great year and it was a great car for long Sunday drives or even vacations to Vermont and New Hampshire.

This was sitting on my computer.  Maybe Ed can fill us in on what happened to it.

Under total restoration on the west coast. It’s being done correctly by a shop that has done a bunch of Pierce Arrow’s. I’m looking forward to seeing it in the near future.

Ed,  is that a 12 or an eight?  A 35 I think?

1936 series 1601 Eight, well known car to PA people.

alsancleOct 15, 2016

Blah.  Reminds me of a high hat Rollson.

In regard to the spare tire question on this car, and that it was carried by a "chase car": Can I assume from the photo in post #18 that a spare tire was added to the car later on?

edinmassOct 15, 2016

I'll throw down the gauntlet, ID the car, body builder, year, chassis, owner when it was new, and cars current location. It has 2200 miles on it. No help from the PA guys!

Spare tire.

Yes, a later update. Car still has its original upholstery.

edinmassFeb 7, 2018

Yes, a later update. Car still has its original upholstery.

Most of the time a dark color will help a big car.  Not here though.

That car need NO help, it’s a fantastic car.........It’s just you car snob high faulting taste that is the problem. If you look close you can read the factory bumper sticker! ?

V12 coming up for auction:  https://www.earlywineauctions.com/vehicles/768/1932-pierce-arrow-model-53

Ed knows all the details.

https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0518-327273/1933-pierce-arrow-model-836-sport-coupe/

I'm bitterly unhappy about the burgundy one I had last year. I was talking to the seller about keeping it myself--he was a friend and we were working out a way for me to put such a valuable car in my collection. I would have liquidated everything else, but I felt it would have been worth it and he was willing to wait for payment in full. I'd been admiring the car for 15 years. Then a buyer showed up willing to pay full asking price, and I didn't feel it would be ethical to not take the money for my client. So I sold the car.

Months later, it was with another dealer with a giant price tag. I don't know if the buyer didn't want it after all or the dealer bought it and lied to me about the buyer, but it slipped out of my hands and is now out of reach forever. I'm none too pleased about any of that. When I saw that Mecum link in the preview pane, I feared for the worst and thought it was "my" car heading for the dumping ground that is Mecum.

Sometimes doing the right thing will get you screwed in the end.

Gee, I have been admiring this one myself.

I have encountered the attached coupe below twice.   First, not too many years ago when it was sitting in the car corral at Hershey with a very reasonable sale price attached and "SOLD" stamped over it.   The car was not 1/2 way down the trailer when it was sold.   Second,  when the very astute collector (a really nice guy with some great cars) brought on a caravan that I was on.   I really like these coupes.

I'm going to say that the yellow car is probably worth a very slight premium over comparable correct eight cylinder car.   Definitely cool,  but you do lose some of the audience on an engine swap.

Convertible version of the coupe that has been for sale in Hemmings.  Not sure if it is still available.

I just looked at that ad.  I would trade my Cord for that. 

Is the upholstery correct?  It looks a bit off, style/ pattern wise.

It would have been nice to see a shot of the engine as well. 

I have this vague recollection that Richie Clyne owns the convertible so he would definitely do a trade if there was profit in it for him.   Semi-rough car with new interior is kind of scary though.

Who knows (Eddy?)  how many of the production Silver Arrows had sidemounts and how many did not?  Also breakdown of 12 vs 8.   Is the 12 warmed over like the show cars?

alsancleApr 29, 2018

I have this vague recollection that Richie Clyne owns the convertible so he would definitely do a trade if there was profit in it for him.   Semi-rough car with new interior is kind of scary though.

I don't mind a driver/ beater type car,  but I doubt there is any upper hand in a trade for my car for him,  so It probably wouldn't work.  Scares me a little as well,  having compression and oil pressure but not running?  Doesn't take much more to get it running unless there is something expensive wrong,  not mentioned. 

It's a whole lot easier to move under it's own power, that to push and winch to move it around a shop. 

alsancleApr 29, 2018

Who knows (Eddy?)  how many of the production Silver Arrows had sidemounts and how many did not?  Also breakdown of 12 vs 8.   Is the 12 warmed over like the show cars?

AJ, after acquiring my production SA coupe in 2006 I searched the PAS master database for any 1934-35 SAs ever registered with PAS (since 1957).  The results were:  1934 8s = 4, 1934 12s = 6, 1935 8s = 1, 1935 12s = 2.  Grand total of 13.  (BTW, my 1934 is an 8 without sidemounts--which I think shows off the lines better, although it renders trunk space absolutely minimal).

Estimated production each year:  The production SAs used the Y body code, and sequential body numbers did not distinguish between 8s and 12s, although the engineering prefix to the body number did (244 = 8 and 344 = 12).  PAS records the highest known 1934 sequential Y body number as 43 (began at "1")--therefore, at least 43 SAs were built that year.  For 1935, the sequential body numbers began at 100, and the highest known number is 104, meaning at least 5 were built in 1935.  PAS records include not only cars registered with us but any identifiable cars in the few surviving employee notes or service records.

PAS records do not indicate whether a car has sidemounts, but with 13 extant, that could be a long winter evening's project with Google Images.

To my knowledge, by 1934-35 there was only the 462 cid V-12 and it was not warmed over for production cars--not including Ab Jenkins's 1934 Bonneville run.

Not sure what is better looking.  The dude in the car,  or the car itself.

Well, its certainly a good looking car AJ! 

alsancleJun 9, 2018

Not sure what is better looking.  The dude in the car,  or the car itself.

I've long been an admirer of Pierce-Arrows and am pleased that my youngest son recently announced that Pierce-Arrow was his favorite kind of car. But that's just ugly. 

Nice car, though.

Are congratulations in order?  I won't comment on the relative attractiveness of man and car but will say you look great together!

Just in time for the PAS Annual Meet in Rohnert Park, CA (near Santa Rosa), July 9-13 with add-on thru Monday the 16th.  Let me know, please, if you and/or the coupe can make it.

Matt HarwoodJun 9, 2018

Nice car, though.

I have a buddy that reacts to Pierce Arrow like it was Viagra.   If you listen long enough you start to realize they are grossly underappreciated.  Ball bearings on the spring shackles instead of bushings and what not.

Been lucky enough to drive 3 different models,  all V12 (2 36 and 1 35) and the power and speed is really impressive.  I've never really gotten going  fast in the same era Packard V12 (never over 30 mph)  so I can't give first hand comparisons, unfortunately.

alsancleJun 9, 2018

I've never really gotten going  fast in the same era Packard V12 (never over 30 mph)

And unless the gearing has been changed, you wouldn't be comfortable doing so.  Hell, I drive my 1918 Pierce 48-B-5 dual valve, 7'8" tall with the top up, almost twice that--55 mph.  This will get the Packard boys and girls spun up!

Now George,  lets not start trouble with the Packard guys!    I usually think of the Packard 12 as a work of art to look at and the Pierce 12 as the workhorse.

So somebody stepped up at the Hershey auction.  Hammer at 135 so 150 ish all in, with another 300-400k to go.

That 32 is a fantastic car...........interestingly the wright up in the auction wasn’t completely accurate. I have the history on that car from day one.......along with an interesting story about it. Who ever bought it should contact me. Ed

And for the record.......Pierce used Torrington roller bearings on the clutch and brake pedals........every other car from Rolls, Packard, and Duesenberg used bushing as far as I am familiar with..........the Pierce twelve used bearings in the distributor..........only two others did that........Cadillac V-16 and Marmon V-16. 

Yeah,  I mentioned to Chris that they were missing a lot of the history.   I'm happy someone bought it that wasn't me. 

I didn't go look at it while at the Fall Meet. Looking forward to talking to the new owner. Properly restored it has First In Class all over it for Pebble.

Here is a picture of a really nice 36 Pierce 12 that was ruined by an interloper who snuck on the field.

Here is a 12 production Silver Arrow for sale at Mecum Las Vegas.   I'm 90% sure this is the car I've sat in which is really really nice.  I know the consignor floats around on the forum (wrong auction my friend!).

https://www.mecum.com/lots/LN1118-361289/1935-pierce-arrow-model-1245-silver-arrow/

I always associate Mecum with Muscle Cars and Vettes.  I imagine others do as well.  Beautiful car. 

It runs and drives great when I was in it about two or three years ago........helped out the restoration shop who sorted it. Fantastic car.

Mecum has a surprising number of nice prewar cars at Monterrey this year,  including this Pierce club sedan.

Unfortunate about the colors.

According to Ed, a pile of money was spent restoring this. Colors are bad, but losing the WW and darker wheels might help?

Matt HarwoodJul 4, 2019

Unfortunate about the colors.

My experience via Significantcars.com is that the buyers are not fond of tan's, brown's (stay around brown), tan/brown, tan/brown/orange, white, some light grey's (depends on car), most greens (except English sports cars in BRG or some 60's Mercedes), certain things in resale red, and ....

Even much darker shades of those colors on that car would look alot better.  Of course I tend to lean to dark colors anyways except maybe silver.  Some cars just look really good in silver. 

John_MerenessJul 6, 2019

My experience via Significantcars.com is that the buyers are not fond of tan's, brown's (stay around brown), tan/brown, tan/brown/orange, white, some light grey's (depends on car), most greens (except English sports cars in BRG or some 60's Mercedes), certain things in resale red, and ....

If you look at your average vehicle passing you down the street,   75% of them will be Black, Silver, Gray.

Maroon seems to stay in style,   Red was formerly "Resale Red" but is now closer to "Rejected Red".

I think it is West that says the wheels and fenders should always be darker than the body if more than one color.   I personally like monotone.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F123867029036

AJ, that 1935 in Spain has so very many expensive things wrong with it--really, really wrong....

As the professors used to assign us: Please enumerate the many expensive things wrong with this 1935, compare and contrast to what is correct.  We stand ready to be informed what is correct and how to recognize it.

Steve

I know.  I would like to see the top bows and mechanism too.    I hate to tear apart somebody else's car when they are trying to sell it.  Bad karma for when my time comes.

The cream colored Pierce Club Sedan was restored at White Post Restorations, I know because I was there when it came in, and took the interior out of it.

No secret as to cost of restoration, the then owner advertised it in Hemmings stating he had $272,000 dollars in the restoration.  There's more to the story but I'll leave it at that.  It's a great car with awful paint and interior, from a classy viewpoint.

The bracket headlight '35 Pierce "convertible coupe" on Ebay has a lot wrong with it, starting with the fact that it's probably a cut-down coupe.  No provisions for top irons, no compartment behind front seat, lots of details incorrect.  It's a car one would have to start over on the restoration, and even then not have much to work with.

58L-Y8Aug 8, 2019

As the professors used to assign us: Please enumerate the many expensive things wrong with this 1935, compare and contrast to what is correct.  We stand ready to be informed what is correct and how to recognize it.

Rumble seat looks like they copied a 1929-32 access panel (the second, hinged piece), and eliminated or covered luggage tray/top well behind seats, lack of power brake pedal & suspicious lines on the differential indicates a conversion to hydraulic brakes, trunk rack & hardware are home-brew, no R/S step plates, no running board chrome strips, door jamb closure geometry is wrong, don't see any wood trim on top of doors (just home-brew rubber flaps), don't see ANY provision for top mechanism, 35's did not have fake vent windows, wrong fan, wrong head nuts, wrong oil filter & lines, wrong side-mount cover, etc.

Or that MAY be a 1929-32 deck and rumble seat section.

At least it has ONE P-A gauge!

The chassis number is wrong, also - should be seven digits starting with "20" with "9" in the fourth digit indicating assembly in Canada.

58L-Y8Aug 8, 2019

As the professors used to assign us: Please enumerate the many expensive things wrong with this 1935, compare and contrast to what is correct.  We stand ready to be informed what is correct and how to recognize it.

I hit "submit" before I added the important info that most of the above comment came from my Evil Twin (we are often mistaken for one another, so I blame everything on him), Bob J (not a member here), who has a 1934 conv coupe which is virtually identical to a 1935.  He also has two 1933s.

George, ask me about the recent barn find 35 Pierce eight convertible coupe.......at Pebble!

GrimyApr 29, 2018

AJ, after acquiring my production SA coupe in 2006 I searched the PAS master database for any 1934-35 SAs ever registered with PAS (since 1957).  The results were:  1934 8s = 4, 1934 12s = 6, 1935 8s = 1, 1935 12s = 2.  Grand total of 13.  (BTW, my 1934 is an 8 without sidemounts--which I think shows off the lines better, although it renders trunk space absolutely minimal).

Estimated production each year:  The production SAs used the Y body code, and sequential body numbers did not distinguish between 8s and 12s, although the engineering prefix to the body number did (244 = 8 and 344 = 12).  PAS records the highest known 1934 sequential Y body number as 43 (began at "1")--therefore, at least 43 SAs were built that year.  For 1935, the sequential body numbers began at 100, and the highest known number is 104, meaning at least 5 were built in 1935.  PAS records include not only cars registered with us but any identifiable cars in the few surviving employee notes or service records.

PAS records do not indicate whether a car has sidemounts, but with 13 extant, that could be a long winter evening's project with Google Images.

To my knowledge, by 1934-35 there was only the 462 cid V-12 and it was not warmed over for production cars--not including Ab Jenkins's 1934 Bonneville run.

There is another Y code car out there, unknown to the world........except to a wonderful young, good looking guy from the east coast. In time , you will learn more about it.

Thanks for the detailed analysis of this '35, obviously trying to make it into something it wasn't originally.  What's to become of such cars....?

58L-Y8Aug 9, 2019

Thanks for the detailed analysis of this '35, obviously trying to make it into something it wasn't originally.  What's to become of such cars....?

It'll get "restored" by someone who doesn't know right from wrong and who figures "good enough" is good enough, then passed around among non-experts until someone tries to display it at a major event or sells it to the wrong person.

Grimy and Ed saved me from making an expensive mistake on this fright pig (which has since been donated to the Petersen Museum--you'd think those guys would do their homework, no?):

Amazing how many fellows who should be familiar enough with body design and details in that period can not recognize a badly modified coupe such as this.  The telltale is always the cowl and front door upper edge that were treated completely differently than a roadster or phaeton.  Only the convertible coupe and convertible sedans are like the closed cars.  But roadsters and phaetons are always the most desirable and expensive so the financial motivation to create a deception for gain to foist on the unschooled is strong.