CCCA Judging

Steve,

My dad has acted as a judge but I have never done it. I have been on the "judged" end of the process. My feeling is that the club is open to any knowledgeable person who wants to judge. It is not easy to find people willing to do it so anyone enthusiastic about participating should be welcomed with open arms.

A.J.

thanks A.J. - understand NE region is pretty active and I need to get that application in, I hear there are some tech sessions planned for spring, one I think, in CT and one maybe in NH?

Anyway, as usual, thanks for the feedback!

Also hoping to generate any discussion on the overall process within CCCA, as the main board has been a little slow these past few days at least relating to Classic era stuff...

I know there are at least 2 past CCCA presidents (both NER members) that check in once in a while. Perhaps they can chime in when they see this thread. The tech sessions are usually pretty good. They schedule them for fairly cool places so there are things to look at before and after the session.

I've judged in CCCA before. It's been a while, so it may have changed, but the training is not as formalized as it is in AACA.

The head judge will give pointers to the team, and he is usually very experienced in judging, so even if there's a newbie in the group, he can direct them correctly.

CCCA judging is a good way to get to know the Classic cars, as it involves both cosmetic and mechanical condition of the car.

Oh, we're going to playeth that game....

“In judging others a man laboreth in vain; he often erreth, and easily falleth into sin; but in judging and examining himself he always laboreth to good purpose”

By the way, this post was in response to a post that said "judge not lest ye be judged", which now seems to have been deleted....dc

Try this for some insight......

"Our judgements judge us, and nothing reveals us, exposes our weaknesses, more ingeniously than the attitude of pronouncing upon our fellows automobile"

Even now after hours of reflection, I still cant comprehend what I have written. (plagiarized)

Ed Minnie, CCCA Master Judge #24

Steve, If you want some help on CCCA judging, come up to the shop in Springfield and we can go over some cars. Ed

Ed, I should have guessed you were a judge. You can show him my Stutz engine and explain why it's a zero deduction

It would be a good idea to post the CCCA judging video on the CCCA website for the members. Maybe it could be posted to youtube for all to see? Ed

Thanks for the feedback guys. On the religious discussion I do remember successfully talking a friend into skipping CCD enough times to ensure he had to repeat it the following year....

David, you hit the nail on the head, my goal is to learn more about Classics.

Ed, I will take you up on your kind offer indeed, having seen your interesting posts (one recent one about younger guys in the area who drive prewar cars was especially interesting...) it would be cool to check out your shop; not too far from me in the Hartford area. Will touch base after the holidays! Between you, A.J. and myself perhaps the NER will need a "kids table" at future events...

WOW! I have had my first post removed. I had to run the quote that was posted through google to find out where it was from...... Since it was directly related to judging I didn't think my additional comment was out of line or religiously based. Guess the higher up authority thought it was....... well, no foul, no harm. Steve, maybe we can judge your 120 at the CCCA judging seminar. We have used non classics before when enough full classics were not available. It's good feedback to see how you judge your own car compared to 25 or more other people. There is lots of good information exchanged at the seminars. You can sign up to become a "student" judge, and then go on to become an accredited judge through the CCCA program. Attend a few grand classics and run a seminar and you can earn the Master Judge pin. I'm pretty sure it is safe to say that both AJ and myself have been the youngest member at a CCCA meet dozens of times. Ed

Last time I judged CCCA was probably 30 years ago, sounds like it's become more formalized, that's good. When I judged, they were asking for volunteers out of the attendees of the Grand Classics.....

Haven't been very active with the CCCA since my wife and I were somewhat snubbed at a Grand Classic in Baltimore, because we brought "only" an open Packard....to a meet with 5 Isotta Fraschinis and numerous other super high dollar cars.....and no, I'm not paranoid, this really happened, I used to love the group down in Louisiana/Texas and their CCCA events, but the Northeast seemed a little different....

Ed's not only a "youngster", but a font of information on pre-war Classics, and a good friend.......

David, Ed's posts speak for themself but between your comments and A.J.'s I am excited to meet him in person. (you also someday - likely at Hershey...)

Ed, I love the idea of judging the 120 - I think you can be blind to things on your own vehicle so that perspective would be an added benefit!

Here is a question - does CCCA ever promote this forum? So far I have only received a couple of "Bulletins" so I am not sure. Great to hear from you three but no surprises in that you are "forum regulars" - it seems this particular section of the forum is a bit underused?

Why isn't there a point-deduction for gloss paint on engine accessories that were originally semi-gloss or matte black? How many 100- and high-point cars have we seen with gloss black engine accessories that never were. You can spin this, and sputter, but it's wrong.

And, not to belabor this, by why isn't there a point deduction for whitewalls on 1946-47 cars? Other than a very few '47 models delivered during the last month or so of the model year, NO 1946-47 cars regardless price class were delivered with whitewalls. Magazine ads have no bearing on this.

If you can prove your car was delivered at the tail end of the model year so equipped, okay. Everyone else, no.

No one says you can't spray your air cleaner, generator, starter, etc. gloss black, or put whitewalls on your 1946-47 car. But right is right. Are historical accuracy, authenticity prerequisites for judging or not?

You can't have it both ways just because you like something, or want to gild the lily. Until the above and other modern era owner vanities are addressed, judging is a joke. There's no such thing as accuracy, authenticity when it's convenient, or doesn't clash with current owner's taste.

Either judging means something, or it doesn't. Which is it?

I'm sympathetic with wanting to personalize our cars, or do certain things we might view as upgrades. I replaced a painted steel water distributing tube in my engine bay with a polished stainless steel one merely as i prefer it. But i'd never expect to have it okayed by a judge.

But once and for all, let's decide if judging is always based on truth, or fancy. Until then, let's not kid ourselves.

Su8OD, I agree with some of your points, but let's go back in time and think about how these cars were made and sold.

A lot of cars had to be dressed up to to sell, so gloss paint on some engine accessories isn't out of the realm of reality.

As far as whitewalls, that's an interesting question. Could you buy whitewalls in 1947? Probably.

Did they come from the factory with whitewalls? Probably not, but all one needs is one picture from a factory shipment, showing whitewalls, and then it's open season.

With all due respect to the time spent by AACA judges, my general comment is that a lot of judging is done on how one might "think" a vehicle would come from the factory, not the reality of how it really came from the factory.

I'll give you a personal example. In 1969, I'd been fooling with old cars for 5 years, and had restored a 1931 Chevrolet, and partially restored a 1925 Dodge coupe. I was 18 years old, but I knew quite a bit about cars.

I wanted to buy a 1969 Cutlass, and my parents gave it to me as a high school graduation present, but in the process went to local Dodge dealer and test drove a Super Bee. What a piece of junk, fit and finish was a laugh, nothing fit, and everything rattled.

I guarantee, if you showed up with that original car and had it judged, it would win NOTHING, it was awful......

So, to say restore it to "original" is an impossible task to start with. What people are doing is restoring cars to a standard they think would be original, but again, is not based in reality.

OK, start throwing stones....

I get all your points above. And, believe me, as mentioned, i'm sympathetic with wanting to upgrade, gild the lily.

But my question remains as unanswered now as it was the last time the issue of, for example, whitewalls came up.

Obviously, we're not going to smear chassis black on our frames and call it a day. I painted my undercarriage with a quality protective paint.

Yet obvious things like gloss black paint on engine accessories that were never delivered with other than semi-gloss are clear cut. And whitewalls on 1946 cars are wrong, wrong, wrong. 1947 cars need to be addressed as above.

Simply: If you're going to have your car judged and have it mean something, the above have to be remedied.

That "everyone does it" or "we like whitewalls" doesn't cut it. When you restore or otherwise present a car to be judged, even if it's otherwise faultless, if you sprayed matte or semi-gloss black engine accessories gloss, or installed whitewalls, you should be docked points accordingly. Period.

Otherwise, judging is farce, a vanity exercise.

Judging should be final arbiter, ensuring cars that are presented as CCCA Classics are faithful. If any part of them are unauthentic, they should be noted, and certainly not validated by receiving 100 points, etc.

Until these flagrant instances of inauthenticity are no longer swept under the rug, justified by vanity or "we all do it," judging lacks credibility. Judging is where the buck stops. The final arbiter. I'd never tell anyone what they can or can't do with their car. But if that car is presented for judging, let's get real.

Su8overdrive..... this thread was not about authenticity questions or problems. It sure sounds like you mind is made up and therefore I won't bother to answer. I suggest you take the CCCA judging classes, become a student judge, then an accredited judge, then master judge, and then a national event head judge, run through the problems and issues related to them, (tabulation and owner directed questions and problems.) then comment on what you think is a fair, verifiable solution to your complaints. If the issue is truly important to you, the effort should no be too great. It would probably only take 7 to 10 years. As there is no perfect system of government, there is no perfect system of judging cars. We can only strive to do the very best we can. This is supposed to be a FUN hobby, and it takes all kinds of collectors from the Pebble Beach crowd to the as found barn find cars. I find them all interesting. Ed.

PS- Dave, thanks for the kind words. I must admit the more I study the cars of the CCCA era, the more I see that there were very few hard rules to what was being shipped out was "always" done one way or another.

I get your points about your now "antique" if not Classic Mopar, Trimacar, and agree. I had to upgrade such an era Mopar ragtop years ago. But these aren't usually concerns with CCCA full Classics, which are by their definition fine, well-engineered, quality, luxury, upscale barouches.

Edinmass sounds mired in bureaucracy. I've had cars judged at nationally renowned concours d' elegances, by CCCA, Packard Club, SCCA regulations.

But as this is a judging thread, i wanted to bring up these glaring exceptions to authenticity. If you want to start a new thread, fine, i bow to your bureaucratic procedures.

Yet, again, sounds like more side-stepping, sputtering, buck-passing; anything to justify modern vanity over historic reality. Specifically, cars that were delivered with engine accessories in matte or semi-gloss (whatever term you prefer) black are today routinely showed at CCCA-judged events with gloss black and never penalized.

This is, purely, simply, wrong. So are whitewalls on 1946 cars. Period. And no 1947 cars, regardless of price/make/model, were delivered with whitewalls, other than a very few during the last month or so of the '47 sales year.

We note that when there's enough hyperactive aging boomer money behind something, as with allowing Chrysler Town & Country models into the CCCA, things happen.

What about it, sportsfans? Is CCCA judging--not AACA or muscle car-- but CCCA judging always about authenticity, historical correctness,

or vanity?

Actions speak louder than words. When we see CCCA Full Classic cars with gloss black engine accessories and cars that were never delivered with whitewalls penalized accordingly at CCCA Grand Classics and the like, we'll have the above answer.

Su8, I agree with you, I have judged from hometown shows to CCCA and Pebble Beach. It is all subjective. CCCA judging is tough because it covers so many wildly different cars from so many years. It is almost impossible to get a group of judges together at a meet that know authenticity on an Isotta or supercharged Mercedes. You would be lucky to find one. If you do find just one, and he scores low because he knows that something that is wrong that the others don't, it isn't fair in the grand scheme of things because maybe you don't have a judge who is an Isotta or Wills St Claire expert, but you do have an MB expert. On the other hand you can easily find 4 Packard or Cadillac experts, and that isn't fair either. That is the rationale for why the club drops the high and low scores of the 4 judges and averages the middle two.

As far as the engine parts go, you are right, most were not the full gloss that we see today if they were purchased from an outside supplier. No one ever, ever deducts for excessive gloss anywhere that I have seen. On the other hand, there are cars that will score 100 points and be better than other cars that score 100 points. The doors and fenders and body panels fit perfect on some cars and don't on others. Dave makes the point that some cars weren't that good when they were new and that is true. Some were really good though, so how do we restore them to be really accurate? When I did my Bohman & Schwartz there were small custom made panels above the doors that were nailed on. If you put them on the way that B & S did, there was a little dimple where every nail went in that held them on, the nails were covered by a trim strip, but the dimples showed. A long time CCCA judge and restorer told me I should have smoothed that up with filler and gotten rid of the dimples and that he couldn't have left it that way. I still think I did it the right way.

Professional restorations are slowly coming around to being closer to really authentic, but when you see what some owners do to cars all in the name of winning big prizes, it is stunning.

As far as I know, you are right about whitewalls on 46s and probably 47s too. I put blackwalls on my 46 2106 Clipper club sedan and got continual grief for it. They were Michelin radials, but were the correct size.

I agree with most of what Dave said. He could not have been more right with what he said about specialty experts.

I look at it this way, if I don't like the judging procedures then I don't have my car judged. If I don't like the club in general, then I don't join the club. I decide what i want to participate in and what I don't. If Steve wants to judge then good for him. What the rest of us thinks doesn't really matter.

All interesting feedback, my primary interest in judging is to get a little more intimately acquainted with Full Classics, and as an avenue of involvement on the CCCA. As a non-Classic owner, this is partly as a fan of these cars, and partly to assess whether we want to pursue one or not. I like my Packard a lot, and could see myself keeping it and getting a sports car or trading towards a Full Classic, and I am not sure which way I will go but the whole process seems like a good way to learn a bit more about these cars. Since I would likely look for a restored car this could also be a good way to network a bit as I also know a lot of purchases never hit the "open market".

To SU-8's points, I am sure, like every avenue of this hobby, there is disagreement and controversy, if it gets to be too much of a PITA with unruly owners, etc. I can always drop the effort, but for now I am looking forward to spring...

Is that your Ohio find?

Excited to see the shop, Ed, and I already appreciate Pierce cars - As A.J. has said in the past there is more to life than just ACD cars and Packards!!

Speaking of Packards, I have been charging mine this AM while tending to a couple other things in the garage - very grey out there this afternoon but I have a little time to myself and I think I will give her some air before the rains come in...

Steve, drive it like you stole it! Ed

Steve, don't ever let any Classic owners pooh pooh your One-Twenty. I had a '40 120 w/ overdrive and a '39 Packard accessory tach. No better road car from the era other than, possibly, a '40 160 on the same wheelbase, and that only for more top speed.

As Edinmass knows, Pierce-Arrows are stupendous cars, and the final generation 1936-38 P-As, both 8s & 12s, came standard with Warner Gear R-1 overdrive, coincentric circles on the speedometer showing rpm in third gear direct and third gear overdrive. IMHO, the finest luxury road cars hands down from either side of the Atlantic were the Packard Twelve, Pierce-Arrow Twelve, and Marmon 16. Sadly, the Packard Twelve was never available with overdrive, and the tallest axle ratio was the seldom ordered 4:06:1, still trucky. Peter Hartmann, among others, has described the benefits of taller gearing for such cars.

Often wondered what the proposed junior Pierce-Arrow "One-Twenty" would've been like. I know they got as far as looking into a deal with Hayes to use bodies a la the final Reo Flying Clouds. But i've never found anything that detailed any designs, proposals for the junior Pierce's drivetrain, which would've been terrific, i'm sure.

Understand your agonizing decision 'twixt sports car and Full Classic. Been there. Personally, like vintage, Classic and sports cars best.

Back to the judging issue, would love to see the CCCA, as the dean of clubs representing the finest cars of that golden era, set the standard for historical accuracy above all. I understand many owners want to feather their nests by overrestoring their Full Classics. And again, anyone's allowed to do whatever they wish with and to their Full Classics. We all know you could ask the dealer or some shop to do such and such to your Full Classic in the day, and that once in a blue moon, a lone Full Classic really was painted Look at Me Red (aka lipstick red, resale red) strictly for display by some distributor or new car show.

But CCCA judging should be the ultimate, the final arbiter of historical accuracy, else we forever lose examples of how Full Classics really were. That, and CCCA judging rules are often followed at non-CCCA concourses throughout the nation, Canada.

Finally, CCCA judging should NOT contribute to the current janitorial d'elegance mentality. The late Phil Hill, partner in a fine Classic restoration shop, said he'd "....seen more beautiful original cars forever ruined for the sake of a few more points at some concours."

In the original European concourses, cars were judged on elegance of line alone, having been driven at speed to the event the day before, wheels, chassis reflecting use, albeit well maintained. These real concourses had nothing to do with janitorial overkill.

This "show car" vs. "driver" nonsense is just that, and should have

nothing

to do with CCCA judging at a Grand Classic or anywhere. Human nature at places like Pebble Beach will always exist. Let it. We can't stop it.

But if the CCCA is to retain respect, we should not remotely contribute to the idea of "show car" vs. "driver," nor overrestoration, just because some owners "like" shiny engine accessories, whitewalls, garish hues, and want to feather their nest, realize greater profit at the next "Classic Car Auction."

If your Full Classic needs to be reduced to a hygiene project, and requires crayon color, gew gaws like whitewall tires, hood ornament, foglights it never had to attract attention, perhaps it's not innately elegant.

Unless the CCCA stops this nonsense NOW, examples of authentic Full Classics will fade forever. Many people, especially younger or new members, don't see this as it's happening, tantamount to frogs boiled to death in an initially tepid pot of water.

Let's see this addressed in 2012, not swept under the rug, shrugged off, "everyone does it," ad nauseum.

CCCA= history or vanity du jour?

Happy Third Day of Christmas, to a healthy, happy New Year.

Agree with the above sentiment. I am even POSSIBLY weaning way from WWW tires eventually...

A problem CCCA seems to face (remember, inexperience here, just an opinion) vs. say, NCRS is the fact that those Vette guys have reams of documentation, and they don't value "overrestoration" at all. That said, most Full Classics, I imagine did not come with "build sheets" nor were experts maintaining mint originals when they were only a few years old. Makes it harder, I think. Also, A.J. makes an excellent point on "how do you deduct for period stuff" even if un-typical or not flattering on the car.

I would love to see (if it does not already exist) some type of award that recognizes the restored car that "Typifies the era" - you know, not overdone for the sake of points. I think that would help people appreciate those cars more. (Think a car with the presence of Ed's red "barnfind")

speaking of early original Concours - I know at least some Jag clubs define the concours judging as "what can be seen by a gentleman crouching" - in other words, the driven car does not lose points, a good thing, I think.

Lest, does anyone have a better nose than Ed? Some good finds there for sure!

Steve

Unless the rules have changed, CCCA does allow "driving" dirt on a car with no deductions. That is, if a car is clean, and during the event it drives on a tour, and has some minor dust or dirt that's evidently from the tour, then no points are deducted.

The same with an accident. I had a running board on my Packard get damaged on the way to a Grand Classic, and no points were deducted for the damage.

I agree with Su8overdrive in the spirit of his comments. He is 100% correct to say that the younger hobbyist must think all Classics were red convertibles with Trippe lights, wide whites and all the chrome, when we know most were really black sedans. But this is a problem with all generations of collector cars--the sexy cars are what people want.

Plus, earlier Classic collectors were the ones that set the stage for this--the ones that could have saved the nice orignal sedans and limousines and did not. I think the unwritten possibility that anything "could have been" will make it impossible to limit outrageous colors and over restoration, even though I agree with the idea. Todd C

To change the status quo, as it now exists, will be the equivalent of trying to move a mountain. Most all collectors are conditioned to “over restore” their cars. I will venture to say, that “most” do not have the foggiest idea of what the car looked like when it was new. In my nearly 40 years in this hobby I have met very few collectors who even tried to obtain original factory literature, photos, or any kind of documentation that illustrated what was correct for their cars. I have known collectors who could not read a Studebaker cowl body tag on their 1929 Studebaker President. One of the earliest and simplest body tags to read.

You cannot force someone to learn if they do not want to expand their knowledge and understanding about their own car. My occupation is that of a teacher, and I teach in a juvenile correctional facility. I am not the least bit delusional; you cannot force someone to learn. The same holds true to teaching collector car owners about what was, or was note, correct on their car when it was new. If their mind is made up that their convertible should be bright red, with four different kinds of accessories lights, wide white walls, fender skirts, radio, leather covered everything, wood grained dash, lighted Lalique mascot, exterior sun visor, and anything else that they can acquire, then they will do it. What the factory produced is immaterial.

But there is hope. When I started in this hobby no one cared about original unmolested cars. Now, most every car collector group recognizes original cars by having at least one class for them on their show field. Maybe, someday, the same will be true for cars restored to the way the factory produced them, not how the owner believes they should look.

The original post by Steve, that started this thread on judging, was about becoming a CCCA judge, not about how CCCA judges cars. If you are interest in learning about Full Classics by all means take advantage of the opportunity to become a certified CCCA judge. What better way to learn about all the different cars that are Full Classics.

Thanks Mark, for putting us on track and your input. I know we went astray but fine as it has been helpful and interesting.

I was especially interested about your comment on original literature, which is funny - I sought out and have obtained many original pieces for my car, including both a "Jr. prestige brochure" and pretty rare "Full line" accesory catalog for 1939 - and it really did help me identify some things. One thing I almost bought but did not buy yet is a saleman's guide, likely next year if I hang onto the car.

Maybe unique to these cars but I have a friend that whose goal is to prep his '65 Corvette Roadster for NCRS certification - those guys are brutal. He attended a cert session where you show up at around 8:00 and are there all day - reviewing 5 or 6 cars. He went just to learn, and found out that he has a lot of work to do on his car which BTW was a pro restoration by a known specialist here in CT. The point being overrestoration is a sin that is sometimes harder to correct in these cases.

I would think that, to some degree CCCA is not unoike AACA in that you can know a lot about a particular era or make, but that level of detail for all models would be pretty tough - interesting discussion though, on the trends within CCCA. I also think there is hope, look at the general consensus here!

Steve, you are on track to become a very dangerous man – someone who has knowledge and is an independent thinker. By reading original literature, and trying to acquaint your self with as many kinds of cars as possible, you are gaining knowledge.

Just so everyone knows, the rules say "There is no deduction for over restoration." I did not write that rule, but that is what we have to work with. We are a club of rules, so we must abide by them, even if we don't always agree . Don't like the rule? Then get it changed.... But keep in mind what Ed said. This is supposed to be fun.

Chuck, a good point and I think the direction this thread has taken is more of an academic discussion on what could be or should be vs. what is. Two things I am a firm believer in,

1 - "The new guy needs to learn before being overly obnoxious trying to change the world" and

2 - "Any game, sport, or hobby with rules is diminished by making your own rules"

That said, working towards evolution in any organization is not a bad thing. My point above is that there are major organizations with a different philosophy on over restoration. Now, the realist in me doubts that would change in CCCA's case due to some of the very expensive Classics that are unfortunately over restored. But I think there is a lot behind what these guys are saying that goes beyond Trippes and WWW - the deal being, if I KNOW what's right for my car I would rather do that then over restore it. I don't get the other philosophy but then I guess a lot of folks get a lot out of the trophies, etc.

It's all fun, though - well, at least 95% of the time!

I won't get into this argument but I will put forward an observation. Folks, especially those who do their own restoration work, seem to be in love with semi gloss black paint, I quess because it hides a lot of ugly. In my humble opinion far more parts that were meant to be gloss (albeit maybe poor quality gloss) are painted semi gloss than the other way round. Cheap, sloppily applied gloss black and semi gloss black are NOT the same thing.

Agree that sloppy gloss black and satin black are not the same. Sloppy gloss may have been the factory level though. No deduction is given for over restoration, but IMO no credit should be given for it either. Generators did not, in most cases, have the same finish as exterior body panels.

I'm thinking that the CCCA has lost much of what this club started out with years ago. Maybe instead of a "Grand Classic " we have a "Grand Picnic" . A plain just get together to share the cars and share a bottle of wine a picnic basket with friends and or guests that we might bring to see all the cars. No judging at all just a fellowship of car owners seeing the good old original or what ever someone is working on . But to share "Classic Cars" ...........

Unfortunately the human race, especially the male of the species has evolved to compete and by God compete we will. A picnic sounds good but it would inevitably morph into "competitive tailgating" like you now see at major sporting events. Think about it...Classic cars would never have existed if someone hadn't wanted a car just a little bit bigger/fancier/more powerful than his neighbor. Reminds me of my 6 year old grandson's baseball team. They aren't allowed to keep score so as not to injure anyone's fragile "self esteem" but I can tell you every kid on the team keeps score mentally and knows who "won".

Restorer32; I would say the event I am speaking of probably would not apeal to you as you seem to have to be rewarded for bringing out a car. That is to bad. This idea has worked in the past when for years the local "Packard Club" held a friendship meet to promote this idea of getting out cars(rare ones) . This all happened at a large local winery . The only thing you got was a tour plaque . But the fabulous cars that showed up was amazing. It ended only after the winery needed the open ground to expand. The cost was free , just the gas to get there.........

I do not need to be rewarded for bringing a car out. Didn't judging develop in the CCCA develop in response to the member's wishes? I was merely commenting on human nature. There is nothing stopping anyone from exhibiting a car as a "do not judge" yet few do.