Bertelli Riley MPH

Hello,

The Classifictaion records show that a 1935 Riley MPH with a Bertelli roadster body was approvedas a Full Classic January 30,1966. The listed owner was a Mr Beatty of California. This is the only Riley approved by the Club. I have no idea what the application number is that you have indicated,as a numbering system was not started until the mid-seventies. It began with 001.

Could you provide a serial number for your car? It is missing from the application file.

I will be at Club Headquarters in early June and I can check the original application for any other information at that time. So I do not forget, wouldyou e-mail me at the Club headquarters? classiccarclub@aol.com

Thanks,

Jon Lee, Chairman, Classifcation Committee

Now for the BIG question. Does a car that has past approval still qualify as a CCCA Classic, or does it have to reapply. Would this car now come in under "race car" rules? How about posting a photo and the info in the 1966 file. I can't find any info on the car and was wondering about displacement, hp, wheelbase, trans, ect. Thanks, Ed Minnie

Why don't we hear more about wonderful, storied Classics like Rileys, Railtons and so many others? Rileys were not only front-runners at Le Mans in the '30s, but won the RAC Tourist Trophy at Ards 1932, '35, '36. Tho' long out of print, Richard Hough's splendid A History of the World's Sports Cars, with introductions by W.O. Bentley and S.C.H. Davis, profiles Rileys, including the MPH model. We should encourage owners of Rileys and other interesting sports and road cars to come out of hiding before the CCCA suffocates under Detroit/US iron and whitewall tires to the exclusion of all else. It's one thing to own a Packard, Cadillac, Auburn, etc., another to be unable to see past your own hood ornament. [color:\\"black\\"]

Gearboy,

I have no problem with the car and letting cars in racing configuration in the club. I was just asking about club procedure. As far as Bentlys go I have driven a 3, 4 1/2, speed six, and 8 litre. I have also had oppertunity to run around in two diffrent Raltions as well as Invecta, ect. So I am pretty familar with most CCCA Classics.I was just not familar with the car or the current club policy as to it's current status. I have no problem with the rare and obscure marques, and enjoy seeing them on the field. As far as the CCCA suffering....well it's at an all time high membership. And if you read Jon Lee's text I think it's clear he is glad to see it back in the hands of a CCCA member. Mr Lee likes to let the Brittish cars leak oil on his garage floor as he owns and drives his W.O. and Allard quite hard and often. He is also one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met in the hobby over the last 25 years. Ed Minnie Life Member CCCA. Past Director NER. Master Judge.

To answer the procedure question, once a car is in the CCCA, it is basically in forever - the car is accepted, not the owner. Unless a car is modified into some sort of hot rod, there is no means to kick it out of the club. I think that some would say that the classification committees in the 60s and 70s were more conservative than the those of today, so it is rather even more doubtful that they would overrule a prior action, even if the rules allowed it. It is interesting that in the early days of the club race cars and "special interest" cars were generally better accepted than they are today, which is a bit odd. If this car is in race car configuration, since it was accepted so long ago, it would still be allowed in the club as it was grandfathered in at the time of the exclusion of race cars. I am surprised that there has been no effort to bring race cars back into the club, giving them their own class, so as to not create a conflict with non race cars which have more things to judge, and often a more consistent history. There are some great race cars like Bugatti Type 35s and MB SSKs which have real, durable metal bodies that have been on the cars since new - even though they were raced - and have great histories, and to me are great Classics. The lack of a top or headlights etc. shouldn't keep them from being in the club. But considering that the club can't even seem to figure out how to administer an original car class, even though virtually every other club has one, I don't expect to see a race car class back in the club any time soon, which is the member's loss.

Dave, I was under the impression that only cars listed in the roster when the "race car rule" was installed would continue to be approved. Others not listed would not. I have not looked it up in the handbook, but I am rather sure that was how the wording was done. Ed Minnie

I think that if the car was in the club, it will still be accepted. Many prominent members don't list part or all of their cars in the directory, so that wouldn't really be a good test, even though it may be the letter of the rules. The boards for the last few years are more willing to use practical logic than some in the past, and will look at problems from the point of view of a member rather than not. I saw a lot of change in that direction during my 9 years on the board.

I'm only the President, so my opinion isn't worth much. But, I can think of no reason why we would want to disenfranchise a car once it is has been accepted. The Classification Committee may have other views, but I?d be surprised if they thought differently.

Speaking personally, I?d be very happy if we would re-open the Club to cars in race configuration. I think it might make for some interesting Grand Classics. As Dave mentions, they?d need to be in their own class, but that shouldn?t be an insurmountable problem.

Incidentally, the current plan is for original cars to become their own judging class called ?Preservation? starting at the Annual Meeting in Boston. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

First, Dave Mitchell is correct in that a car designated as Full Classic remains so. Secondly, Ed points out a vague area in our rules relevant to "Race cars". By the letter of the statement of policy, if it was not listed in the 93/94 Directory, it would not qualify for "Grandfathering" However, I'm not aware of any such determination on any specific car.

As far as I can recollect, the Riley in question, with a one-off body by Bertelli, is in full road trim, with lights and wings (fenders) and all the other stuff. Consequently, as far as this particular car is concerned the "race car" statement does not have any impact.

In researching just what went on during the Race Car Discussions in 1993/94, it appears that there was a fundamental misunderstanding between two groups. I believe that the intent was to avoid the "Back-Yard Special/ Saturday night dirt-track race car" (I Race one of these cars today, so don't think I'm putting down the traditional American Race Car). If you read the Statement of Policy on Race Cars, it refers to cars that may not be equipped with such things as starters, doors, upholstery, exhaust, etc. The reference is to a car that is not street-legal. However, this does also eliminate many significant historical factory built race cars. In my opinion, this statement is not a proper or necessary ruling. There are a few members who have suggested doing away with this statement. In order to do so, it would be necessary to have proposals from more than a few Club members. Now, I certainly would not wish to be seen as soliciting such support, but the Classification Committee would certainly review any such submission presented in writing to National Headquarters.

I might also mention that Dave Mitchell's frustration concerning the Original Cars is well-earned; he worked diligently for some time to formulate an Original Car program. As Chuck mentions from time to time, our Club does tend to move at glacial speed. However, the program, now designated the "Preservation Class", is coming together. There are a few procedural things to work out, and thanks to Harry Clark of California, we will have a workable program.

Jon Lee

To pmpmph, I would like to apologize for the incorrect assumption that his car was in "race car configuration". I accidently inferred it from the text in his first post, and when I could find no information on his rare obscure make, concluded incorrectly that it was a competition automobile. Maybe it is now possible to turn this around and make a misunderstanding into something positive. I will write a letter to the classification committee to review the entire policy of "race cars". I would welcome the above posters who made comments in support of these cars to also do the same. I STAND CORRECTED. Ed Minnie

Ed,

I'd be happy to write a letter, but it might look a little odd coming for me. Ditto for Jon. Maybe you can start something...

I seem to have unwittingly started something here! As JDLee has pointed out, the Bertelli MPH is a civilised sports car, although it's very early days may hold some competition secrets. 6 MPH cars were built by Riley as pure competition cars, these were 2 seaters but very light weight and pointed tails etc. The 6 cylinder Riley engine was the basis of the ERA single seater racers,which were very successful and are all still racing today.

About 15 MPH were built, they had Electron diffs.,15 inch Electron brakes drums and mine has a pre selector Electron gearbox. So the 'production' cars were basically the same chassis as the racers but with all the creature conforts of the day. They failed to sell because they were too expensive at £550. The Bertelli MPH appears to be the only one with a non standard body. The body was built by Aston Martin's coachbuilder, Enrico Bertelli, who was the brother of the owner of Aston Martin, A.C. Bertelli. I hope this info. is of some interest.